2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Tommy Cookers.

You write:
  • “again .... no .....

    the max power of 2 T-406 (now AE-1107-C) engines is 9000 kW (c. 6000 hp each) .... AT SEA LEVEL
    but at medium altitude (20000') the max power is c. 3600 hp each

    the V22 transmission was designed for these worst cases ......
    5700 hp from one engine working and one engine inoperative ONI .... or ....
    4750 hp from each engine when in dual engine operation DEO in helicopter mode .... or ....
    4200 hp from each engine DEO in airplane mode (same torque but proprotor runs at 333 rpm ie is 84% of helicopter mode's)

    ie typically power from each engine DEO in airplane mode is 2500 - 3000 hp

    see ASME 1990 paper 90-GT-245 'T 406 Engine Development Program' by Arvin & Bowman

    when the V22 project started the intended glide ratio was 8 in airplane mode and 3 in helicopter mode
    see Flight Safety Foundation (article 'Tiltrotor Offers a Choice' in) 'Helicopter Safety' Vol 14 No 6”


Quote from https://www.verticalmag.com/features/20 ... v-22-html/

“Typical stall speeds occur around 105 to 110 KCAS, depending upon aircraft conditions;”

“For reference, a 30-degree nacelle setting roughly corresponds to 130 knots calibrated airspeed,”

“During transition, the flight controls switch from a helicopter to an airplane based upon a speed schedule contained in the flight control computers. Swashplate movements are reduced and the flaperons rise up to become very large ailerons. (One thing to note is that the TCL doesnt change its function; it still controls the thrust vector by collectively changing the proprotor pitch.)
At this point, the Osprey is cruising along essentially as a twin-engine turboprop airplane, flying at the same speeds, altitudes and flight rules as traditional turboprops. The primary difference is the lack of ability to fly with one proprotor feathered, (which is one of the major training obstacles of multi-engine airplane transitions). Should a proprotor gearbox fail in airplane mode, causing the related proprotor to stop, the only recourse is to shutdown both engines and conduct a power-off glide and emergency landing; the adverse yaw is just too great for the rudders to overcome, leaving few options.”

“The loss of both engines in airplane mode requires very similar emergency techniques as utilized in a twin-engine airplane. However, as mentioned earlier, unlike an airplane it is impossible to feather the proprotors. The glide ratio of the Osprey is about 4.5 to 1 and the rate of descent while windmilling is about 3,500 feet a minute at 170 KCAS. Landing speeds vary with aircraft weight, but a middle-of-the-envelope speed is 130 KCAS. Unfortunately, the proprotors will definitely impact the ground, and converting the nacelles is not recommended. A safety design feature of the proprotors, however, is for them to broomstraw and throw the resulting fibers away from the fuselage to minimize damage to the occupants. Unfortunately, this characteristic has been tested in accidents; fortunately, it works as advertised.”

“Stalling the Osprey is a definite possibility when youre flying in the low end of the airplane-mode flight envelope. Typical stall speeds occur around 105 to 110 KCAS, depending upon aircraft conditions; fortunately, its rare to be flying that slow without having converted. One situation that can be encountered, however, is an accelerated stall, because the stall speeds can increase upwards of 140 KCAS as the bank angle increases.”

End of Quote


From the https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a562098.pdf pdf:
Maximum vertical-take-off weight: 24,000Kgf

Image

Quote from https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/osprey/

“Performance
The V-22 can climb at the rate of 16.2m/s. The maximum and cruise speeds of the aircraft are 565km/h and 510km/h respectively. The range is 3,379km. The combat range and service ceiling are 692km and 7,620m respectively.”

End of Quote




According the previous:

565Km/h is the absolute maximum speed.

Combining the 4.5:1 glide ratio with the 24,000Kgf total weight, a drag of:
24,000 / 4.5= 5,300Kgf = 53,000N is calculated.

To displace this drag force at 565Km/h ( = 157m/sec) the required net power is 157m/sec * 53,000N = 8,300kW

With a, say, 90% efficiency of the propellers, the maximum power developed by the two engines is 8,300/0.9 = 9,200kW

Even the 4.5:1 glide ratio is poor for a fixed-wing airplane. However the OPSREY V22 is much more than a conventional fixed-wing airplane.



Back to the Portable Flyer.

Wearing a wing suit, at medium speeds (~200Km/h) the required power for sustaining a horizontal flight is small.

For higher speeds (300Km/h) a wingsuit is not necessary (or the pilot can retract his limbs to reduce the aerodynamic drag from the wingsuit).

The flexible human body makes the transition from hovering horizontal cruising and vice-versa easy and controllable.

Image

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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4.5 is the glide ratio with windmilling prop-rotors adding drag and shouldn't be used to calculate L/D of the airframe at cruise or Vmax.
je suis charlie

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 13:23

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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For most subsonic aircraft, the limiting factor for its maximum speed in level flight isn't engine power, it's the wing/airframe design. For instance purely from a engine power standpoint an A320 could easely fly faster than M0.82, but the airframe design doesn't allow it.

gruntguru
gruntguru
566
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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565 km/hr is pretty slow. I doubt the airframe is limited to that.
je suis charlie

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Gruntguru.

You write:
"565 km/hr is pretty slow"


The Chinook CH-47 (which is, typically, what the Osprey V22 replaces) with 7,000kW total power has only 310Km/h maximum speed. . .


For the Portable Flyer more useful / more comparable case is the flight of Visa Parviainen:

Image

who achieved a horizontal flight wearing a wingsuit and having secured on his legs a pair of jet-turbines providing 32Kg total thrust.

More at https://www.dropzone.com/articles/news/ ... ight-r601/

The most important info is the required power in order a wingsuiter to keep flying without lossing altitute and without lossing speed.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 13:23

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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gruntguru wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 09:41
565 km/hr is pretty slow. I doubt the airframe is limited to that.
If i remember correctly during the development project for the V22 severe buffeting of the tailplane was a major problem when testing the first prototypes. They solved that over time, but the question is how well they solved it. I mean one issue props generate depending on their location is that they send pulsed gusts of air over an aerofoil behind them, which means the created lift oscilates with a certain frequency which basically means prop wash can induce vibrations in a wing itself.

Rodak
Rodak
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Joined: 04 Oct 2017, 03:02

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Re your transition pictures above, I'm curious how you plan to transition from high speed forward flight to braking mode. Seems like you would have to go through a zero speed interval to reverse the thrust as, per your comments, the human body is providing lift; braking then becomes unnecessary as you are already stopped. Please show how this transition is made and sustained without the wind stream forcing the flyer back into forward flight attitude (weather-cocking).

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Rodak.

At the middle of page 202 of this discussion it is a video showing Franky Zapata accelerating - decelerating with his FlyBoardAir JetPack.

The following image:

Image

was made using slides from that video.

Compare with:

Image

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

NathanE
NathanE
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Joined: 31 Mar 2017, 07:49

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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I was going to reply with two images but can't find the energy to work out how so I'll just post the words instead!

Pendulum

Pencil balancing on its point

User avatar
nzjrs
60
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 11:21
Location: Redacted

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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NathanE wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 09:44
I was going to reply with two images but can't find the energy to work out how so I'll just post the words instead!

Pendulum

Pencil balancing on its point
Oh no! Now you've given him license to post his pendulum rocket fallacy videos!

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
643
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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http://www.duc-helices.com/?lang=2
now says they have flight-adjustable props - and a USA branch at Sebring duc-propellers-usa.com
and rotors (or not ?)
everything


NOTES TO SELF ....
there's/may be a new ELA European Light Aircraft (600 kg) vs existing ICAO aircraft (start at 700 kg)
and the USA LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) and in parallel the Sport Pilot License
(the LSA is exempt from FAR 23 design demands eg fatigue testing)
now a campaign for expanding LSA etc including aerial work (FAA says no movement of people for hire eg multicopter taxis)
and there is consideration of the NGLA Next Generation Light Aircraft (and NG Licence) issues under the ICAO


pendulum ....
what does a pendulum do if it's in or nearly in free fall ??
the reason Mr Mayman said he would have died if not over shallow water with rescue divers following him metres behind ??
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 20 Jun 2020, 12:47, edited 2 times in total.

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Tommy Cookers

You write:
"pendulum ....
what does a pendulum do if it's in or nearly in free fall ??"




Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Rodak
Rodak
35
Joined: 04 Oct 2017, 03:02

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 07:17
Hello Rodak.

At the middle of page 202 of this discussion it is a video showing Franky Zapata accelerating - decelerating with his FlyBoardAir JetPack.

The following image:

https://www.pattakon.com/Fly_files/ZAPATA_Acc_Dec.png

was made using slides from that video.

Compare with:

https://www.pattakon.com/GoFly/Portable ... _small.png

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
The pictures of the flyboard are not relevant to your system. Show how YOUR flyer would transition from fast flight to braking mode. Please show how the pilot would maintain his attitude in braking mode and why he would not just weather cock back into flight position if there was forward speed. You can't have it both ways; either the body of the pilot provides lift and acts as a wing or it doesn't. If it does I don't see any way to get into a stable braking position. If it doesn't ...... As I mentioned, to achieve the braking position the flyer, from what you show, has to go through a zero speed condition which means there is no need to brake......

NathanE
NathanE
3
Joined: 31 Mar 2017, 07:49

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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nzjrs wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 10:22
NathanE wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 09:44
I was going to reply with two images but can't find the energy to work out how so I'll just post the words instead!

Pendulum

Pencil balancing on its point
Oh no! Now you've given him license to post his pendulum rocket fallacy videos!
Oops, sorry :D

manolis
manolis
107
Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Rodak

You write:
"The pictures of the flyboard are not relevant to your system."

The pictures are as relevant as it gets.

They show how Zapata vectors the trust to the desirable direction in order to hover, or to accelerate, or to decelerate.
The pilot of the Portable Flyer does the same: the thrust is vectored to the desirable direction in order to hover, or to accelerate, or to decelerate.

In the one case the power unit is under the feet of the pilot, in the other case the power unit is above the head of the pilot.

Spot on the direction of the thrust in the case of Zapata and in the case of the Portable Flyer, during hovering, during acceleration and during deceleration.
Do you see any difference?



You also write:
“Please show how the pilot would maintain his attitude in braking mode and why he would not just weather cock back into flight position if there was forward speed.”

Attitude or altitude?
And why to keep his altitude at braking?

Think how the motorcycles at the moto-GP decelate / brake before a turn.
The rider just rises his upper body and the aerodynamic resistance does most of the braking.
If necessary, he brakes with the normal brakes, too.



You also wite:
“ You can't have it both ways; either the body of the pilot provides lift and acts as a wing or it doesn't.”

You can have it both ways.
Because the human body is flexible and the human brain is a great controller.
Enjoy once more the following video and think if they “have it both ways”:



The skydivers can accelerate and decelerate / brake and then accelerate again and so on (their speed varies between, say, 150Km/h to 350Km/h), they can also move sidewise (into some limits).

But the skydivers cannot help moving downwards, while the Portable Flyer can move at all directions.



You also write:
“ As I mentioned, to achieve the braking position the flyer, from what you show, has to go through a zero speed condition which means there is no need to brake......”

Braking means to decelerate.
Not to go, necessarily, through a zero speed.



I propose to try, first, to understand the “Pendulum Rocket Fallacy” (even Goddard failed initially to get it).
When you get it, you may get the rest, too.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos