Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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I don’t think Hamilton is a good reference point, he is truly something different, he’s the exemption. If you look at other WC in their years before they took the crown, all of them at their first real possibility, they were loose cannons. Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen... especially Senna (who had a very special sitting down by Stewart) and Hakkinen (who even got race bans).

Senna by the way, now hailed as the greatest of all time, was considered cocky, dangerous and immature before and during 1988.

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Jolle wrote:
25 Jun 2020, 00:19
I don’t think Hamilton is a good reference point, he is truly something different, he’s the exemption. If you look at other WC in their years before they took the crown, all of them at their first real possibility, they were loose cannons. Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen... especially Senna (who had a very special sitting down by Stewart) and Hakkinen (who even got race bans).

Senna by the way, now hailed as the greatest of all time, was considered cocky, dangerous and immature before and during 1988.
HAM is the reference point because that is who VER will need to beat. The topic is VER winning the championship, he will mostly like will have to beat HAM to do so.

The criticism of Senna was nonsense, when did he cause collisions? He hit a couple back markers in 88 and after, but before that he was mostly clean. Mansell hit him a couple times, one of which was famous because Hunt blamed Senna nonstop and then had to retract and apologize. Senna's big mistake was Monaco 88. Prost crashed into him in Japan 89, and caused the collision again in Japan 90. Before 88 Senna was highly aggressive in defense, but didn't cause collisions.

Only biased people thought those things of Senna, there was no proof on track for them to do so.

Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
25 Jun 2020, 00:36
Jolle wrote:
25 Jun 2020, 00:19
I don’t think Hamilton is a good reference point, he is truly something different, he’s the exemption. If you look at other WC in their years before they took the crown, all of them at their first real possibility, they were loose cannons. Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen... especially Senna (who had a very special sitting down by Stewart) and Hakkinen (who even got race bans).

Senna by the way, now hailed as the greatest of all time, was considered cocky, dangerous and immature before and during 1988.
HAM is the reference point because that is who VER will need to beat. The topic is VER winning the championship, he will mostly like will have to beat HAM to do so.

The criticism of Senna was nonsense, when did he cause collisions? He hit a couple back markers in 88 and after, but before that he was mostly clean. Mansell hit homa couple times, one of which was famous because Hunt blamed Senna nonstop and then had to retract and apologize. Senna's big mistake was Monaco 88. Prost crashed into him in Japan 89, and caused the collision again in Japan 90. Before 88 Senna was highly aggressive in defense, but didn't cause collisions.

Only biased people thought those things do Senna, there was no proof on track for them to do so.
In his lotus days, when he was driving a fast, but not superior car, he crashed quite often. 3-4 retirement at year for collisions. His whole attitude was beating everybody at all costs. Famous of course is his line "if you don't go for a gap, you are not longer a racing driver (of something along those lines) and his famous BMW procare race. The comment of Martin Brundle "he would let it up to you if you had a crash or not" said something about his attitude. Which, we now all admire.

I remember coaching a young racing driver and he almost took off a rival in the first corner of the first race. When I asked him, why didn't you just back out? he said: next time we come to a corner like that, he will know I won't back down. Thats the spirit you want and need.

And with all of the touches over the year, he only once didn't finish a race because of a first corner incident, of which you could even say that it was Raikkonen who drove like a rookie, trying to take the apex from the outside like at the first corner of the GP.

One DNF due to a crash is a very good setup for a titel challenge. Only beaten by Hamilton with zero (if you don't count Germany)

Dee
Dee
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Max has two modes; X factor or high factor. High performance or high drama. Hero or Zero. There is no in between.

With the right car, he is either going to win the championship like a new Senna or lose the championship in a crash that takes Lewis out with him

Either way we are going to be in for an entertaining ride

I cannot wait! :D

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langedweil
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Hey, I miss Engine Turner's list on this page (10)!? Watskeburt ?

On the good side, just only 5 more days before the race thread finally is there !!
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Starscreamer
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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I think Max will be WC 2020
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Dee
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 03:20
Jolle wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 23:04
What is all the trauma people have with Verstappen? Not a word about for instance, Ricciardo, who is highly regarded and many here wanted him at Ferrari, who actually had the most stupid crash of 2019 (among other things) or leclec who keeps bumping into stuff?

What is it? This hatred... the guy is young, and just like Schumacher and Senna before him, drives on and sometimes over the edge. Isn’t that what we want? Daring drivers? Makes F1 a whole lot less dull... or have all of you forgotten the years that nobody even tried to overtake?
No. It's an interesting topic because Verstappen is billed as the guy to dethrone Hamilton this year. Ricciardo is years away from challenging for anything so no point mentioning him.

This is not a hate topic, no. It's a topic for the minds of people who like to make calculations and predictions. Looking at various factors can we say these emotions for putting Verstappen up to the task are justified? Are we failing to acknoweledge the finer details of a sustained chamionship challenge? Has Max displayed what it takes in the various areas or are we letting everything ride on talent and some hope that everything else will work it self out?

May argument is his talent and package of other skills and resources are not enough to overcome the outside factors in 2020. He would have to awaken some ultimate driving skills, zero mistakes, good decision making and team leadership skills to win against the perfectly oiled machine in the silver garage.

It is like putting a 2013 Lewis Hamilton againts a 2019 Lewis Hamilton. Even of the 2013 Hamilton was slightly quicker and more aggressive would it be enough?
Max has had his moments, he also has had a 21 time continuous top 5 finish streak in the third best car. Will be interesting to see who gets out the gate the quickest and who can keep the lead or claw it back

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Top five is easy to do since the leading six cars are miles in front of the mid-field. So 3rd best car needs to be put in context.
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TimW
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Jun 2020, 22:49
Top five is easy to do since the leading six cars are miles in front of the mid-field. So 3rd best car needs to be put in context.
By that rationale LH's titles were easy to do as well :D

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NathanOlder
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Still had to beat the other best 5 cars though :mrgreen:

For anyone to win the title, you have to beat Lewis, Vettel, Max, Charles, Valtteri.

For a top team driver to finish 5th, you get to drive a RedBull, Ferrari or Mercedes. And need to beat cars that are a good 1 second a lap off the pace in the race, remembering the 2nd RedBull is no where near the pace.
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TimW
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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I think we all agree Mercedes was clearly the best car over the last 7 seasons (except maybe early 2017)

Max finished an average 3rd in those races, not 'easy to do', just like I do not consider the WDC by Hamilton 'easy to do'.

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Laserguru
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Jean Todt. We have seen last year how far he is willing to go. This year he has unprecedented power due to COVID19. Nicolas will make sure dad will cover up Ferrari’s usual illegal steps, or arrange a small fine or slap on the wrist worst case. Of course he will then quickly state this will never happen again. Thanks to last years illegal Ferrari engine they are now authorized to direct the fia to ban any beneficial engine technology competitors invent. Jean wants his present and he wants it now. And then to think Ferrari objects a former Mercedess team boss to replace him? No such thing while Jean is king. Were the fia president elections not postponed indefinitely? Good times coming. So now you know why Verstappen must not win in 2020. Maybe time for another Verstappen rule then Jean? Don’t wait too long, it is a short season. Maybe have a talk with Ocon Jean? He is an expert in crashing into other cars deliberately. Needs cash too. Maybe reward by an illegal engine for Renault as already mentioned by Helmut Marko? So many choices...
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Moore77
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Laserguru wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 10:10
Jean Todt. We have seen last year how far he is willing to go. This year he has unprecedented power due to COVID19. Nicolas will make sure dad will cover up Ferrari’s usual illegal steps, or arrange a small fine or slap on the wrist worst case. Of course he will then quickly state this will never happen again. Thanks to last years illegal Ferrari engine they are now authorized to direct the fia to ban any beneficial engine technology competitors invent. Jean wants his present and he wants it now. And then to think Ferrari objects a former Mercedess team boss to replace him? No such thing while Jean is king. Were the fia president elections not postponed indefinitely? Good times coming. So now you know why Verstappen must not win in 2020. Maybe time for another Verstappen rule then Jean? Don’t wait too long, it is a short season. Maybe have a talk with Ocon Jean? He is an expert in crashing into other cars deliberately. Needs cash too. Maybe reward by an illegal engine for Renault as already mentioned by Helmut Marko? So many choices...
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Wynters
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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TimW wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 10:04
Max finished an average 3rd in those races, not 'easy to do', just like I do not consider the WDC by Hamilton 'easy to do'.
Even if you ignore all the times he retired, he averaged 4th last season and in the two seasons before. With retirements, he averages significantly worse.

TimW
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Hamilton averages worse than 2nd over the last 2 seasons. In the best car! Must be a lousy driver if he cannot even average 2nd in the best car....

(To be clear, I consider Hamilton a great driver (and Verstappen a very good driver too), I just use him to show the reasoning is wrong)