[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Andres125sx
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Wynters wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 16:31
Quick shout back to Styria.

Each of the drivers had two significant stints:-
1) Once Sainz had been passed by Albon, Sainz had 23 laps at an average lap time of 1:09.65. He finished with a final 5-lap avg of 1:09.35 and pitted on lap 32. He had started losing time on his last two laps. I suspect he was trying to clear the Grosjean/Raikonnen/Kvyat/Gio battle from his pit window but couldn't quite manage it.
1) Once Stroll passed Norris he found himself stuck in the Ocon train. He traded places with Perez and Gasly but it didn't really matter as Ocon was holding all of them up. This didn't seem to be too much of an issue though as, once Ocon pitted on lap 26, Norris' pace remained consistent, sitting a couple of seconds back from Perez. In light of this, I've included the traffic period in his first stint meaning that Norris did 33 laps with a 1:09.74 average, finishing on a 5-lap 1:09.26 average when he pitted on lap 39.

2) Sainz comes out in traffic but it quickly clears leaving his second stint pretty unobstructed. Over the next 28 laps he averages a 1:08.57, finishing with a 1:08.12 (this is excluding the lap Norris passed him which saw a 1:09.85 from Sainz).
2) Norris comes out and is pretty clear until he reaches Sainz and then onto the end. This 31 lap stint was averaged at 1:08.0 with a final five laps of 1:07.4 or 1:07.9 (if you use the final 3 laps of squabbling). I've also excluded the lap he passed Sainz (which cost him almost a second).

Both drivers had a surprising amount of time in clear air (although I suspect Norris' strategy was dictated by being stuck behind the Ocon train for most of his first stint). Sainz commented after the race that trying to clear the traffic after his stop destroyed his tyres but I'm not wholly convinced. He cleared most of the traffic within 4 laps and barely sniffed the Racing points (overall, he spent four laps within 2-seconds of either Racing point and never within 1 second of them). The botched stop really didn't help but he was going to come out into traffic regardless. I feel it was a poor race from Sainz after a great qualifying.

Norris, on the other hand, seemed comfortable managing his pace in traffic and then dropping the hammer when the road opened up in front of him.

They did both have a weirdly slow lap 45, no idea why.
Thanks for the analysis :)

But can´t agree with the red part. I´ve just checked as I have the race recorded. Sainz lost around 4 seconds in the pitstop (7.2 seconds). There was a train of Kvyat, Giovinazzi and Raikonnen, then Grosjean 3 seconds back. He would have needed a lightspeed pitstop to clear Gio, but with a standard pitstop he would have been in front of Kimi. But instead of that, he went out of pits behind Raikonnen... and also behind Grosjean. He went out of pits in lap 33 and passed Kimi in lap 38, so 5 laps in dirty air he should have never suffered (dirty air from 4 cars is much worse than dirty air from 2 cars). But those were just traffic, then Ricciardo, Stroll and Perez, their real rivals who were all of them behind him before the pitstop at 0.7, 2.4 and 4.0 seconds (gaps at lap 32), were all in front after the pitstop because of the lost 4 seconds and a bit more due to the traffic :evil:

On a race where the midfield is so tight, losing three positions and being forced to run in dirty air for some extra laps will ruin anyone´s race. Sainz was doing the race he had to do, keeping those Renault and RP behind, and coming into the pits soon to avoid an undercut. But when s**t happens there´s nothing he could have done better

Add to that he was forced to let Norris pass (TOs) because he was much faster at that point (ruined tires), and in the end that pitstop did cost him 4 positions, so he finished 9th instead of 5th

That pitstop completely ruined his race :cry:

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 17:45
1) I agree with most of this except that Sainz wasn't loosing time the last 10 or so laps before the pit stop, rather Ricardo got faster and was closing in. I make this distinction only because Stroll and Perez were fighting and falling back from Ricardo.
Wynters wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 16:31
He had started losing time on his last two laps. I suspect he was trying to clear the Grosjean/Raikonnen/Kvyat/Gio battle from his pit window but couldn't quite manage it.
Ricciardo was coming back at hm, but it's also pretty clear that Sainz was at the end of his tyre life. If nothing else, coming out in traffic was going to hurt him more than Ricciardo breezing past with DRS, so why not stay out a couple of laps longer and come out in clear air. If he could.
24 1:09.352
25 1:09.497
26 1:09.348
27 1:09.360
28 1:09.166
29 1:09.218
30 1:09.472
31 1:09.565
diffuser wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 17:45
2) Sainz had a couple of battles in the first 10 laps after his pit stop. He passed Perez and was repassed by Perez. He also said he was going to back off attacking and recover his tires on race radio. To which his engineer replied agreeingly.
Sainz comes out on lap 33, passes Grosjean (old tyres) the next lap, after Stroll makes it easy for him.
Laps 34 and 35, Stroll (who had come out of the pits in front of him and Grosjean) holds at about 1.3 seconds ahead then begins to pull away, so not battling him, passing Kimi on lap 36.
Lap 37 Sainz passes Kimi (old tyres).
Lap 38 Sainz passes Giovinazzi (old tyres), who pulled out of the way.
Lap 39, Perez comes out in front of Sainz, they duel impressively for a couple of corners, then drives away from him comfortably.

The cars he passed were all on old tyres and he was around a second a lap faster than them. If he did burn up his tyres passing them then I suspect he chose a suboptimal approach.
Last edited by Wynters on 17 Jul 2020, 19:38, edited 1 time in total.

Hoffman900
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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What is the effect of wake on downforce and tire scrubbing? Slightly less downforce will likely result in more tire scrub for a given lap time (to the point you go over the tire's ability).

What are the effects of the Pirelli's and subsequently the hard compound to come back from being slightly over heated? We know this in amateur racing, certain brand tires can bounce back after being overheated, other brands / compounds will not.

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Andres125sx wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 18:50
But can´t agree with the red part. I´ve just checked as I have the race recorded. Sainz lost around 4 seconds in the pitstop (7.2 seconds). There was a train of Kvyat, Giovinazzi and Raikonnen, then Grosjean 3 seconds back. He would have needed a lightspeed pitstop to clear Gio, but with a standard pitstop he would have been in front of Kimi.
He was very close to clearing Kvyat too, assuming he'd had a normal pitstop. If he'd been able to maintain his pace for those last two laps then he'd have been very well placed.

I agree that the fumbled pitstop was key. As you say, at least Stroll and Perez would've come out behind him and he might have kept ahead of Ricciardo as well.
Andres125sx wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 18:50
On a race where the midfield is so tight, losing three positions and being forced to run in dirty air for some extra laps will ruin anyone´s race. Sainz was doing the race he had to do, keeping those Renault and RP behind, and coming into the pits soon to avoid an undercut. But when s**t happens there´s nothing he could have done better
It's a tough one. Norris kept his tyres alive, despite spending 25 laps in the Ocon train and fighting with both Perez and Gasly (compare his lap time average and end with Sainz who had no traffic and a shorter stint). Whilst the pitstop absolutely stuffed Sainz, I can't help but feel that a driver of his calibre could have done a better job preserving the tyres whilst passing the cars in front of him. It's just supposition though. I've no hard evidence that proves he could've avoided taking that early life out them.

Lucky
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Wynters wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 19:21
diffuser wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 17:45
1) I agree with most of this except that Sainz wasn't loosing time the last 10 or so laps before the pit stop, rather Ricardo got faster and was closing in. I make this distinction only because Stroll and Perez were fighting and falling back from Ricardo.
Wynters wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 16:31
He had started losing time on his last two laps. I suspect he was trying to clear the Grosjean/Raikonnen/Kvyat/Gio battle from his pit window but couldn't quite manage it.
Ricciardo was coming back at hm, but it's also pretty clear that Sainz was at the end of his tyre life. If nothing else, coming out in traffic was going to hurt him more than Ricciardo breezing past with DRS, so why not stay out a couple of laps longer and come out in clear air. If he could.
24 1:09.352
25 1:09.497
26 1:09.348
27 1:09.360
28 1:09.166
29 1:09.218
30 1:09.472
31 1:09.565
diffuser wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 17:45
2) Sainz had a couple of battles in the first 10 laps after his pit stop. He passed Perez and was repassed by Perez. He also said he was going to back off attacking and recover his tires on race radio. To which his engineer replied agreeingly.
Sainz comes out on lap 33, passes Grosjean (old tyres) the next lap, after Stroll makes it easy for him.
Laps 34 and 35, Stroll (who had come out of the pits in front of him and Grosjean) holds at about 1.3 seconds ahead then begins to pull away, so not battling him, passing Kimi on lap 36.
Lap 37 Sainz passes Kimi (old tyres).
Lap 38 Sainz passes Giovinazzi (old tyres), who pulled out of the way.
Lap 39, Perez comes out in front of Sainz, they duel impressively for a couple of corners, then drives away from him comfortably.

The cars he passed were all on old tyres and he was around a second a lap faster than them. If he did burn up his tyres passing them then I suspect he chose a suboptimal approach.
From that description sounds like he had alot of work to do. Remember on lap 40 you still have 31 more laps to do. As many as he did on the softs (be it with a lower fuel load). He didn't know at that point that he'd end up so far ahead of the people behind him to have a free pit stop.

It's no secret in f1, battling in traffic takes alot of life out of one's tires.

I'm not sure what to make of the "I suspect he chose a suboptimal approach." comment. Sounds Fanboyish.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Is there a huge upgrade package we are waiting for Silverstone? Anyone knows and how much it will give?

SmallSoldier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:Is there a huge upgrade package we are waiting for Silverstone? Anyone knows and how much it will give?
The team mentioned about a package for Silverstone, but not sure if how in depth it is... How much it will give? Probably not even the team knows with certainty and without knowing what is in the package, impossible for any of us to know.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 22:41
Is there a huge upgrade package we are waiting for Silverstone? Anyone knows and how much it will give?
Would be nice.

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JRindt
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Wynters wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 19:38
Andres125sx wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 18:50
But can´t agree with the red part. I´ve just checked as I have the race recorded. Sainz lost around 4 seconds in the pitstop (7.2 seconds). There was a train of Kvyat, Giovinazzi and Raikonnen, then Grosjean 3 seconds back. He would have needed a lightspeed pitstop to clear Gio, but with a standard pitstop he would have been in front of Kimi.
He was very close to clearing Kvyat too, assuming he'd had a normal pitstop. If he'd been able to maintain his pace for those last two laps then he'd have been very well placed.

I agree that the fumbled pitstop was key. As you say, at least Stroll and Perez would've come out behind him and he might have kept ahead of Ricciardo as well.
Andres125sx wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 18:50
On a race where the midfield is so tight, losing three positions and being forced to run in dirty air for some extra laps will ruin anyone´s race. Sainz was doing the race he had to do, keeping those Renault and RP behind, and coming into the pits soon to avoid an undercut. But when s**t happens there´s nothing he could have done better
It's a tough one. Norris kept his tyres alive, despite spending 25 laps in the Ocon train and fighting with both Perez and Gasly (compare his lap time average and end with Sainz who had no traffic and a shorter stint). Whilst the pitstop absolutely stuffed Sainz, I can't help but feel that a driver of his calibre could have done a better job preserving the tyres whilst passing the cars in front of him. It's just supposition though. I've no hard evidence that proves he could've avoided taking that early life out them.
It’s not entirely about how many laps you spend behind a car’s wake. It’s also about when you are spending those laps. There is a method to bringing these tyres to life. You do it too soon and too fast— like Sainz did— you lose the performance. I remember a couple of years ago —in Austria I think, but not sure — everyone’s tyres were blistering like hell and Alonso after the first pitstop was very slow. I remember at the time thinking wtf was he doing. Then I got my answer during the final laps when he made up multiple places on cars that pushed too early and destroyed their tires. Not too dissimilar to the race Norris did last time around.

Also, Sainz’s electric energy was already expended by the time he started fighting Perez. I’ve read that merc pu is really good at recovering energy this year. This makes a difference in Austria where you don’t have many corners to harvest. TBH I was really surprised at how easily Perez went around Sainz like a backmarker. Now I’m pretty sure Sainz must have exhausted his battery fighting everyone after the pit stop.

Edit: yep. It was Austria 2018. Alonso pitted on lap 15 and pulled out his fastest lap on lap 69 :shock:

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/2018/aus ... rand-prix/

chrisgr
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Both our drivers are a bit worried about our pace in dry track. Even if it was FP1.

chrisgr
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Both our drivers are a bit worried about our pace in dry track. Even if it was FP1.

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_cerber1
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Let's wait for the dry third workout, and we'll see there.

CjC
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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... XcmNd.html

Sounds like we can’t switch the tyre on. Not good if it’s a dry quali at the Hungaroring where you can’t overtake during a dry race.....

I keep mentioning the word ‘dry’ as there’s light rain forecast for quali and Heavy rain for the race which could change everything and Sainz sounded more confident with the wetter conditions on Friday
Just a fan's point of view

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Andres125sx
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Wynters wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 19:38
Andres125sx wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 18:50
But can´t agree with the red part. I´ve just checked as I have the race recorded. Sainz lost around 4 seconds in the pitstop (7.2 seconds). There was a train of Kvyat, Giovinazzi and Raikonnen, then Grosjean 3 seconds back. He would have needed a lightspeed pitstop to clear Gio, but with a standard pitstop he would have been in front of Kimi.
He was very close to clearing Kvyat too, assuming he'd had a normal pitstop. If he'd been able to maintain his pace for those last two laps then he'd have been very well placed.
Sorry but that´s far from accurate. When Sainz went out of the pit at lap 33, cars and gaps in front of him were:

Grosjean +1.5
Kimi +2.5 (+4)
Giovinazzi +1.4 (+5.4)
Kvyat +1.6 (+7.0)

Sainz pitstop was 7.2 seconds, so with a 3.2 seconds pitstop he´d have cleared Kimi, that would be possible. But he´d have needed under 1.8 seconds pitstop to clear Giovinazzi, and under 0.2 seconds pitstop to clear Kvyat

As you´ve posted yourself, he just lost 1 tenth and 2 tenths in final 2 laps. Let´s imagine he could have improved from his average 1:09.3 to two final laps in 1:09.1, then he´d have been 3 and 4 tenths faster than he was.

Still, the pitstop should have been under 0.9 seconds, no way he could have passed Kvyat. Actually to pass Giovinazzi with those imaginary quick final 2 laps the pitstop should have been under 2.5 seconds, so not even Giovinazzi was on the ecuation.


Wynters wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 19:38
It's a tough one. Norris kept his tyres alive, despite spending 25 laps in the Ocon train and fighting with both Perez and Gasly (compare his lap time average and end with Sainz who had no traffic and a shorter stint). Whilst the pitstop absolutely stuffed Sainz, I can't help but feel that a driver of his calibre could have done a better job preserving the tyres whilst passing the cars in front of him. It's just supposition though. I've no hard evidence that proves he could've avoided taking that early life out them.

As explained by others, if you´re forced to pass traffic with brand new tires wich you can´t warm up progresively, those tires can easily be done. But if you don´t then your race is done anycase, so coming out of pits in traffic is a huge problem, it´s not just the time you loose, it´s the stress you put on the tires at the worst possible moment, when you should be careful with them