[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[godlameroso]

High rake car will also experience much greater change in ride height with fuel weight. By it's very nature high rake car sees the rear squat a lot to bleed off downforce at speed. Thus the high rake philosophy is one where maximum downforce is generated at lower speeds and as the rear squats drag and downforce are reduced. Getting the car to squat at the right amount at the right speed range is probably tricky. Because the chassis deforms and performs differently at different speeds, and also the ride height changes which causes the downforce to work differently at different speeds.

Perhaps the car works better in the race because the ride height is moved to a more useful range due to the fuel weight. Why it's hard to get the pace from the car when it's on fumes.

Exactly, race trim is loaded with fuel and the rear is stable. The low fuel runs is when the car seems to suffer.

I agree the nose seems to lift and causes the instability. Looking at the leading edge of the cape the angle looks like it would generate lift, but given that's so obvious there must be some benefit that outweighs the potential decrease in downforce from channeling the air from the cape in such a way. Based on Max and Alex's feedback that the car understeers and leads into a spin, it seems the center of rotation or aerodynamic balance is too far forward at the tea tray and would be more neutral and toward the barge boards if it had lower rake.

The cape is to feed the bargeboards more air. The floor also has raised leading edges. The rear wing also has a raised leading edge vs the lowest part. Raising the leading edge encourages more airflow to be funneled into the low pressure side. The more mass of air you have flowing over a surface, the greater the effect of that surface.

So the more airflow you have reaching the diffuser, or the top of the diffuser, the stronger the floor will be worked. The airflow being worked by the car is limited, you have to try to feed the most critical aero surfaces as much air as possible for them to do their thing.

[RGAEDA]

Not sure which GP it was, the cape on RB16 seemed disturbed(fluttering) at medium and high speeds. I wonder how big of an impact it has in altering the airflow to bargeboards. Assuming it creates some change in airflow, how much does it affect the car if it is to ride on a bumpy curve? Or could it be that the airflow changes are minute enough to even have any effect?

[ispano6]

High rake car will also experience much greater change in ride height with fuel weight. By it's very nature high rake car sees the rear squat a lot to bleed off downforce at speed. Thus the high rake philosophy is one where maximum downforce is generated at lower speeds and as the rear squats drag and downforce are reduced. Getting the car to squat at the right amount at the right speed range is probably tricky. Because the chassis deforms and performs differently at different speeds, and also the ride height changes which causes the downforce to work differently at different speeds.

Perhaps the car works better in the race because the ride height is moved to a more useful range due to the fuel weight. Why it's hard to get the pace from the car when it's on fumes.

Exactly, race trim is loaded with fuel and the rear is stable. The low fuel runs is when the car seems to suffer.

I agree the nose seems to lift and causes the instability. Looking at the leading edge of the cape the angle looks like it would generate lift, but given that's so obvious there must be some benefit that outweighs the potential decrease in downforce from channeling the air from the cape in such a way. Based on Max and Alex's feedback that the car understeers and leads into a spin, it seems the center of rotation or aerodynamic balance is too far forward at the tea tray and would be more neutral and toward the barge boards if it had lower rake.

The cape is to feed the bargeboards more air. The floor also has raised leading edges. The rear wing also has a raised leading edge vs the lowest part. Raising the leading edge encourages more airflow to be funneled into the low pressure side. The more mass of air you have flowing over a surface, the greater the effect of that surface.

So the more airflow you have reaching the diffuser, or the top of the diffuser, the stronger the floor will be worked. The airflow being worked by the car is limited, you have to try to feed the most critical aero surfaces as much air as possible for them to do their thing.

In theory yes but it seems that in medium speed corners the flow stalls or is easily disturbed. The problem in my opinion is too much air getting under the floor.

[godlameroso]

Not sure which GP it was, the cape on RB16 seemed disturbed(fluttering) at medium and high speeds. I wonder how big of an impact it has in altering the airflow to bargeboards. Assuming it creates some change in airflow, how much does it affect the car if it is to ride on a bumpy curve? Or could it be that the airflow changes are minute enough to even have any effect?

Depends. Fluttering can actually improve flow stability.

[basti313]

If I didn't see it wrong he just lost it last few turns. until that Verstappen is ahead of vettel. If they can find a solution I think there potantial to be close to Mercedes

I do not understand the conclusion. What does "ahead of Vettel" have to do with "close to Mercedes"? All we saw is that even non perfect Q laps, chilling a race away by Merc and a clean air race for RedBull ends with Hamilton being 40sec ahead at the end of a race.

[godlameroso]

the gap at the end was 6 seconds and change. Plus 22 seconds for a pit stop, that's ~28 seconds. IIRC Hamilton pitted on lap 67?

So without the stop Hamilton would have finished roughly ~30 seconds ahead by the checkered flag.

30 second gap divided by 70 laps gives us ~.5 which is the average race pace gap.

What happens if that gap comes down by .3?

With a .2 sec average gap or less, Verstappen and Hamilton would be trading laps through the race.

[Wouter]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rodynamik/

Star designer Adrian Newey believes he knows the cause of the misery. "We now know what works and what doesn't," confirms Marko. "From this basis, we continue to develop. We try to correct the errors as quickly as possible. That is why not all new parts come to the car in one go, but one by one, so that we can see if there is an error somewhere has crept in. "

"DAS system is off the table for now. We first have to sort out our chassis problems."

In Silverstone, Red Bull also has to fear the Racing Point. The copy of the car from last year is based on the same genes. Marko is not worried about the season. "We should be stronger there. You cannot implement the speed from the qualification in the race. And in terms of strategy, you are still not that far."

[Bill]

Marko is still winging about power he even think Renault produce more power than Honda in quali .their car is undrivable why can't they just admit that.in a power track they were second best team and in track were power is not that important they were fourth best.the sector times and speed traps show Honda can match Mercedes. The pu is the best part about that Rbr package.

[Wouter]

Marko is still winging about power he even think Renault produce more power than Honda in quali .their car is undrivable why can't they just admit that.in a power track they were second best team and in track were power is not that important they were fourth best.the sector times and speed traps show Honda can match Mercedes. The pu is the best part about that Rbr package.

Marko didn't say that! Michael Schmidt from AMuS said that.

Beim Motor sind Red Bull und Honda die Hände gebunden. Der Spielraum, mehr Leistung zu finden ist begrenzt. Inzwischen haben alle gemerkt, welchen Supermotor Mercedes da gebaut hat. Red Bull rechnet den Leistungsvorteil von Mercedes in eine Rundenzeit von vier Zehnteln um. GPS-Messungen zeigen, dass Mercedes über den Winter massiv an Leistung zulegen konnte, Renault hat im Qualifikationstrim etwas mehr als Honda, während Ferrari grandios abgestürzt ist.
Im Rennen steht Honda dann etwas besser da als Renault.

[ENGINE TUNER]

RBR is no longer dominating at heights as they changed their turbo concept.

Incorrect, the turbo had nothing to do with their better relative performance at high altitude tracks last season. It has much more to do with Merc poor cooling at altitude and a very good near maximum downforce package.

[maguetox]

the gap at the end was 6 seconds and change. Plus 22 seconds for a pit stop, that's ~28 seconds. IIRC Hamilton pitted on lap 67?

So without the stop Hamilton would have finished roughly ~30 seconds ahead by the checkered flag.

30 second gap divided by 70 laps gives us ~.5 which is the average race pace gap.

What happens if that gap comes down by .3?

With a .2 sec average gap or less, Verstappen and Hamilton would be trading laps through the race.

Your math is assuming that Hamilton was extracting everything he has on his car and Red Bull can improve their pace in .3 seconds. I think Red Bull needs to improve their race pace around .5 per race lap in order to be as close as .2 per lap.

[Bill]

Last year James Allison was specifically asked about why they were struggling in Brazil gp and he said it was to do with their small turbo which is not efficient at high altitude.As for Marko what ever he says influence what journalists write.i doubts the media goes around with gps device to measure power between pu manufacturers.
He still implying Racing point are quicker over one lap because of better pu rather last year Merc being better than these year Rbr,you still smell that stench in the air.

[TNTHead]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rodynamik/

Star designer Adrian Newey believes he knows the cause of the misery. "We now know what works and what doesn't," confirms Marko. "From this basis, we continue to develop. We try to correct the errors as quickly as possible. That is why not all new parts come to the car in one go, but one by one, so that we can see if there is an error somewhere has crept in. "

"DAS system is off the table for now. We first have to sort out our chassis problems."

In Silverstone, Red Bull also has to fear the Racing Point. The copy of the car from last year is based on the same genes. Marko is not worried about the season. "We should be stronger there. You cannot implement the speed from the qualification in the race. And in terms of strategy, you are still not that far."

Thanks for sharing.

One other paragraph is also worth noting:
"In Austria, Red Bull suspected bending in the underbody. According to sports director Helmut Marko, however, this is only part of the truth. "After all the examinations, we can say that the dog is in the aerodynamics. There is something wrong with the inflow. Bending the parts is certainly a point, but the air flow also breaks off for other reasons. For example, because the copied Mercedes nose has been copied poorly."

Last sentence is in German is 'Zum Beispiel weil die kopierte Mercedes-Nase schlecht kopiert wurde'. German is not my native language but I suppose they are indeed pointing to the slim nose and cape, even admitting that their copy concept is not yet working well.

Curious to see if at Silverstone adjustments can be seen in this area!

[Bandit1216]

Your German is good enough. It ideeds means it was copied poorly

[godlameroso]

the gap at the end was 6 seconds and change. Plus 22 seconds for a pit stop, that's ~28 seconds. IIRC Hamilton pitted on lap 67?

So without the stop Hamilton would have finished roughly ~30 seconds ahead by the checkered flag.

30 second gap divided by 70 laps gives us ~.5 which is the average race pace gap.

What happens if that gap comes down by .3?

With a .2 sec average gap or less, Verstappen and Hamilton would be trading laps through the race.

Your math is assuming that Hamilton was extracting everything he has on his car and Red Bull can improve their pace in .3 seconds. I think Red Bull needs to improve their race pace around .5 per race lap in order to be as close as .2 per lap.

Of course we've seen that improvement estimations tend to be conservative, perhaps Mercedes has another tenth or two hidden on top of those .5 Some of that can be down to latent performance and some of that due to the car's own developments.