[ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

[SmallSoldier]

The Mercedes seems to be unrivaled in mid speed corners. The fact there aren't that many around here may be why they're not miles ahead like they were in the last 2 races. Or it could be the heat forcing them to run conservative.

You don’t consider a full second to the closest car not been miles ahead? Lol


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In race pace, ultimate pace, that Mercedes is just obscene. They'll pull away, not doubting that, just they won't be able to pull a second a lap every lap.

They won’t, but not because they can’t... It’s because they won’t need to... If they manage half a second lap, they can pull more than half a minute of the closest car... They are miles ahead in both Qually and Race Pace


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[Wynters]

Not sure how long these will last:-
Hamilton's pre-start radio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rD9BNLR8MM

Hamilton's last lap radio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDQj1feHDz8

Most useful things from it: Hamilton was offered "Use whatever Strat you want, so Strat 5." on the last lap.

"The tyre was looking...the tyre was feeling fine and...I must've hit something on the track." - Hamilton on the cool down lap.

Hamilton didn't see a flag when he crossed the line.

The team asked him to stop as soon as he crossed the line to "...preserve the car, preserve our stock of bits."

[godlameroso]

You don’t consider a full second to the closest car not been miles ahead? Lol


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In race pace, ultimate pace, that Mercedes is just obscene. They'll pull away, not doubting that, just they won't be able to pull a second a lap every lap.

They won’t, but not because they can’t... It’s because they won’t need to... If they manage half a second lap, they can pull more than half a minute of the closest car... They are miles ahead in both Qually and Race Pace


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They can't in the race, there's not enough fuel/oil/tires to maintain that kind of pace for 52 laps. You can argue with me but you can't argue with physics.

So far we've seen the hard tire used at this event started degrading after 175km that they tried to pull 225km+ is little surprise the tire failed.

Next weekend the hard tire will only be good for ~100km a two stop is assured.

[SmallSoldier]

In race pace, ultimate pace, that Mercedes is just obscene. They'll pull away, not doubting that, just they won't be able to pull a second a lap every lap.

They won’t, but not because they can’t... It’s because they won’t need to... If they manage half a second lap, they can pull more than half a minute of the closest car... They are miles ahead in both Qually and Race Pace


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They can't in the race, there's not enough fuel/oil/tires to maintain that kind of pace for 52 laps. You can argue with me but you can't argue with physics.

So far we've seen the hard tire used at this event started degrading after 175km that they tried to pull 225km+ is little surprise the tire failed.

Next weekend the hard tire will only be good for ~100km a two stop is assured.

Not arguing physics... Actually, the physics play for everyone and just like Mercedes can’t use “qualifying mode” through the entirety of the race, neither can any other team out there.

Mercedes ultimate race pace is still beyond half a second a lap to anyone else’s ultimate race pace... What we are experiencing is that Mercedes doesn’t need to be close to it to win their races, at the end they don’t care if they are 0.1 second a lap faster or 1 second a lap faster, they just need to be faster during the race... They can run at 90% while the rest are doing so at 100% and still pull away.

Reality is none of us know how hard the teams are pushing during the race or how close they run to the limit, but it’s clear that Mercedes can cruise around and dominate... Your estimate that in “race pace” Red Bull is only 0.3 seconds behind is just not accurate and definitely not based on data... If you eliminate the Safety Car laps out of the race, your will see that on average Mercedes far exceeds that benchmark during the race.


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[godlameroso]

So you're saying Bottas wasn't trying?

[Wynters]

So you're saying Bottas wasn't trying?

Bottas (or anyone) driving at the absolute limit of his ability =/= Bottas going quickly.

[SmallSoldier]

So you're saying Bottas wasn't trying?

To make the overtake on Hamilton? I do believe he wasn’t trying... He kept his gap to Hamilton for most of the race, or better said, Hamilton kept his gap to him.

He kept “pressure” on Hamilton by not letting him runaway and therefore close enough to take advantage of any mistakes or mishaps, but at no giving point did he actually tried to attack Hamilton.


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[Just_a_fan]

So you're saying Bottas wasn't trying?

No doubt Bottas was trying to overtake and wanted to do so. But Hamilton kept him at bay - easy to do by staying just out of DRS range. Easy to be a touch slower in certain places to keep lap time at a given level but not let someone get close enough to attack.

Why was this being done? Because Hamilton will have been told (or may even have worked it out himself) that Bottas had a pair of new mediums in the garage where Hamilton did not. If they had run away in to the distance, Bottas could have pitted and come back out ahead of Verstappen. He would then have been able to go +/- 2s / lap quicker than Hamilton, catch him and overtake him. Hamilton couldn't go in for his other mediums because they were damaged in his qualifying spin.

Hamilton had to keep Bottas at bay and keep Verstappen close enough to prevent Bottas taking a free pit stop in order to attack him on fresh fast rubber. Think Hungary 2019 for how this would play out.

People say the race was boring but they probably didn't see/understand the poker game going on at the front.

I'm sure that had Hamilton had a set of fresh mediums in the garage, he would have gone very much quicker and tried to break Bottas, safe in the knowledge that he had a fall back position. As it was, Hamilton had no fall back position. He had to make it a one stopper to nullify Bottas's extra tyre set advantage.

[El Scorchio]

So you're saying Bottas wasn't trying?

To make the overtake on Hamilton? I do believe he wasn’t trying... He kept his gap to Hamilton for most of the race, or better said, Hamilton kept his gap to him.

He kept “pressure” on Hamilton by not letting him runaway and therefore close enough to take advantage of any mistakes or mishaps, but at no giving point did he actually tried to attack Hamilton.


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TBH I think Hamilton just has his number when all things are equal. Often when Hamilton gets the lead he's able to just pull away bit by bit. When it's the other way round he's able to chase him down and if not pass at least get right on him.

As for 'not trying' to overtake at the start, I think there's some truth in that- BUT I think there's clearly a gentleman's agreement or rules of engagement that they don't treat each other quite like any other driver on another team, presumably to avoid Hamilton/Rosberg MKII. A few times last year Hamilton wasn't as aggressive trying to overtake Bottas as he could have been (Baku for one) and would have been with anyone else. So far both drivers have been very respectful of each other, and it'll take some Rosberg type shenanigans from one of them to change that.

Hamilton probably feels he doesn't need to do any of that, and Bottas TBH is probably slightly too honourable than maybe he should be at times.

And to add, this is probably (oft discussed) why Mercedes retain their line up each season.This pairing delivers titles and no headaches.

[godlameroso]

So you're saying Bottas wasn't trying?

No doubt Bottas was trying to overtake and wanted to do so. But Hamilton kept him at bay - easy to do by staying just out of DRS range. Easy to be a touch slower in certain places to keep lap time at a given level but not let someone get close enough to attack.

Why was this being done? Because Hamilton will have been told (or may even have worked it out himself) that Bottas had a pair of new mediums in the garage where Hamilton did not. If they had run away in to the distance, Bottas could have pitted and come back out ahead of Verstappen. He would then have been able to go +/- 2s / lap quicker than Hamilton, catch him and overtake him. Hamilton couldn't go in for his other mediums because they were damaged in his qualifying spin.

Hamilton had to keep Bottas at bay and keep Verstappen close enough to prevent Bottas taking a free pit stop in order to attack him on fresh fast rubber. Think Hungary 2019 for how this would play out.

People say the race was boring but they probably didn't see/understand the poker game going on at the front.

I'm sure that had Hamilton had a set of fresh mediums in the garage, he would have gone very much quicker and tried to break Bottas, safe in the knowledge that he had a fall back position. As it was, Hamilton had no fall back position. He had to make it a one stopper to nullify Bottas's extra tyre set advantage.

So why didn't Bottas try to go faster if he had an extra set of tires? Are you saying that Hamilton was holding up Bottas despite Bottas never being in DRS range at all? I'm not sure I buy what you're selling. The fact is neither Mercedes could build up a gap to give them a free pit stop, no matter what they tried, because they weren't as far ahead of RB as they were in the last two races. Mercedes never intended to two stop, it wasn't even an option, and either Bottas no longer has any ambition to be champion, or he tried to beat Hamilton couldn't either way RB was closer here than they were in the last two races.

[Wynters]

The fact is neither Mercedes could build up a gap to give them a free pit stop, no matter what they tried.

Mercedes never intended to two stop, it wasn't even an option

Why do you keep insisting that Mercedes were desperately pushing every single lap? What possible reason would they have to do that? In the second quote, you even admit that there was no need for them to pull far ahead as they had no intention of stopping for a second time.

We know for a fact that Hamilton had not exhausted his highest Strat mode allocation because he was offered that following the puncture. That, in itself, proves that they weren't trying everything.

If that's not enough, we can look at Leclerc vs 'Balls to the wall' Hamilton:-
Immediately after the final SC period, Hamilton spent 6 laps pulling away from Leclerc, at an average of 1.62 seconds per lap.
In the 6 laps leading up to Bottas' tyre fail, Hamilton was only pulling away at 0.63 seconds a lap. I guess that means that, despite giving it everything, Leclerc (who was 25+ seconds behind Verstappen and not pushing) managed to find one second a lap on Hamilton who was 'trying everything' to go as fast as possible.

Between lap 11 (1:30.903) and his fastest lap on lap 45 (1:29.238) Hamilton found 1.675 seconds.
Leclerc on lap 11 (1:32.183) and his fastest lap on lap 49 (1:29.813), found 2.33 seconds. But you think Hamilton was the one pushing, particularly in the second stint, desperately trying to build a pointless gap to Verstappen?

[godlameroso]

The fact is neither Mercedes could build up a gap to give them a free pit stop, no matter what they tried.

Mercedes never intended to two stop, it wasn't even an option

Why do you keep insisting that Mercedes were desperately pushing every single lap? What possible reason would they have to do that? In the second quote, you even admit that there was no need for them to pull far ahead as they had no intention of stopping for a second time.

We know for a fact that Hamilton had not exhausted his highest Strat mode allocation because he was offered that following the puncture. That, in itself, proves that they weren't trying everything.

If that's not enough, we can look at Leclerc vs 'Balls to the wall' Hamilton:-
Immediately after the final SC period, Hamilton spent 6 laps pulling away from Leclerc, at an average of 1.62 seconds per lap.
In the 6 laps leading up to Bottas' tyre fail, Hamilton was only pulling away at 0.63 seconds a lap. I guess that means that, despite giving it everything, Leclerc (who was 25+ seconds behind Verstappen and not pushing) managed to find one second a lap on Hamilton who was 'trying everything' to go as fast as possible.

Between lap 11 (1:30.903) and his fastest lap on lap 45 (1:29.238) Hamilton found 1.675 seconds.
Leclerc on lap 11 (1:32.183) and his fastest lap on lap 49 (1:29.813), found 2.33 seconds. But you think Hamilton was the one pushing, particularly in the second stint, desperately trying to build a pointless gap to Verstappen?

He was managing the race, obviously, you have to manage the race, you have limited resources. You cannot run the engine at full tilt all race long, it can be done strategically. Hamilton wasn't racing LeClerc, he was racing Bottas and Verstappen. Hamilton knows Mercedes is faster, so realistically he's racing Bottas. He is racing, he isn't just cruising around, you seem to think that Bottas is so beneath Hamilton that he doesn't even have to try. That Bottas has relegated himself to the number 2 driver, and Hamilton can just cruise in the dominant Mercedes that's at least .7 seconds faster than the nearest challenger, plus Hamilton's .3 advantage over Bottas.

So Bottas was just cruising in his number 2 spot to make Hamilton look good, and he did just enough to make Mercedes look good by keeping a 5 second gap to Verstappen when they could have taken him to 'gapplebees' and taken a free pit stop with ease? I guess they didn't do it because then they'd make a mockery of the sport.

[Wynters]

He was managing the race, obviously, you have to manage the race, you have limited resources. You cannot run the engine at full tilt all race long, it can be done strategically. Hamilton wasn't racing LeClerc, he was racing Bottas and Verstappen. Hamilton knows Mercedes is faster, so realistically he's racing Bottas.

Just because he wasn't directly racing Leclerc, doesn't mean that Leclerc finding a second-a-lap of time vs the Mercedes is irrelevant. Unless you think Leclerc was desperately pushing every lap and Hamilton wasn't?

I agree that he wasn't racing Verstappen. He did a lap on three wheels and still finished comfortably ahead of him.

He is racing, he isn't just cruising around, you seem to think that Bottas is so beneath Hamilton that he doesn't even have to try...plus Hamilton's .3 advantage over Bottas...So Bottas was just cruising in his number 2 spot to make Hamilton look good

Where did I say this? Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I have said rather than addressing the evidence I've presented?

I have said, several times, that a driver can be driving to the limit of his ability but that doesn't mean that the car is turned all the way up.

If the only competition is your team mate, and the team has turned both cars down to 'X'%, then you could still be racing him as hard as you can in equal machinery (see the arguments between Rosberg and Hamilton when both were sneakily turning their engines up against team orders in Bahrain and Barcelona) but you aren't posting the quickest lap times you could if the car was turned up.

Hamilton can just cruise in the dominant Mercedes that's at least .7 seconds faster than the nearest challenger,

If you have a dominant car, why wouldn't you cruise to maximise reliabilty?

What's the benefit to blasting around at 'X' seconds a lap faster than everyone else and then having mechanical failures every other race because you've overstressed the components?

Why win by more than the safe amount?

So Bottas was just cruising in his number 2 spot to make Hamilton look good, and he did just enough to make Mercedes look good by keeping a 5 second gap to Verstappen when they could have taken him to 'gapplebees' and taken a free pit stop with ease? I guess they didn't do it because then they'd make a mockery of the sport.

You said that Mercedes had no intention of stopping again. So why do you think they would damage the car even more than the usual race wear in order to pull 30 seconds in front? They had such a comfortable lead over Verstappen (10 seconds, not 5) that Bottas was able to cruise around with bad vibrations obscuring his vision for 4 laps, then blow a tyre before the final corner, and still have time to ease off that corner, drive down the straight, tip toe around two more corners, drive off and rejoin before Verstappen overtook him. How much of a cushion do you think Mercedes feel they need?

Don't you think it's weird that Mercedes open the gap to Verstappen at a rate of a second every 2-3 laps, until it got to ten seconds. And then it mysteriously stayed there for 8 laps until Bottas had problems?

"The secret, is to win going as slowly as possible." - Niki Lauda

[Big Tea]

He was managing the race, obviously, you have to manage the race, you have limited resources. You cannot run the engine at full tilt all race long, it can be done strategically. Hamilton wasn't racing LeClerc, he was racing Bottas and Verstappen. Hamilton knows Mercedes is faster, so realistically he's racing Bottas.

Just because he wasn't directly racing Leclerc, doesn't mean that Leclerc finding a second-a-lap of time vs the Mercedes is irrelevant. Unless you think Leclerc was desperately pushing every lap and Hamilton wasn't?

I agree that he wasn't racing Verstappen. He did a lap on three wheels and still finished comfortably ahead of him.

He is racing, he isn't just cruising around, you seem to think that Bottas is so beneath Hamilton that he doesn't even have to try...plus Hamilton's .3 advantage over Bottas...So Bottas was just cruising in his number 2 spot to make Hamilton look good

Where did I say this? Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I have said rather than addressing the evidence I've presented?

I have said, several times, that a driver can be driving to the limit of his ability but that doesn't mean that the car is turned all the way up.

If the only competition is your team mate, and the team has turned both cars down to 'X'%, then you could still be racing him as hard as you can in equal machinery (see the arguments between Rosberg and Hamilton when both were sneakily turning their engines up against team orders in Bahrain and Barcelona) but you aren't posting the quickest lap times you could if the car was turned up.

Hamilton can just cruise in the dominant Mercedes that's at least .7 seconds faster than the nearest challenger,

If you have a dominant car, why wouldn't you cruise to maximise reliabilty?

What's the benefit to blasting around at 'X' seconds a lap faster than everyone else and then having mechanical failures every other race because you've overstressed the components?

Why win by more than the safe amount?

So Bottas was just cruising in his number 2 spot to make Hamilton look good, and he did just enough to make Mercedes look good by keeping a 5 second gap to Verstappen when they could have taken him to 'gapplebees' and taken a free pit stop with ease? I guess they didn't do it because then they'd make a mockery of the sport.

You said that Mercedes had no intention of stopping again. So why do you think they would damage the car even more than the usual race wear in order to pull 30 seconds in front? They had such a comfortable lead over Verstappen (10 seconds, not 5) that Bottas was able to cruise around with bad vibrations obscuring his vision for 4 laps, then blow a tyre before the final corner, and still have time to ease off that corner, drive down the straight, tip toe around two more corners, drive off and rejoin before Verstappen overtook him. How much of a cushion do you think Mercedes feel they need?

Don't you think it's weird that Mercedes open the gap to Verstappen at a rate of a second every 2-3 laps, until it got to ten seconds. And then it mysteriously stayed there for 8 laps until Bottas had problems?

"The secret, is to win going as slowly as possible." - Niki Lauda

Then they do not make mid season rules to knobble your car

[tangodjango]

He was managing the race, obviously, you have to manage the race, you have limited resources. You cannot run the engine at full tilt all race long, it can be done strategically. Hamilton wasn't racing LeClerc, he was racing Bottas and Verstappen. Hamilton knows Mercedes is faster, so realistically he's racing Bottas.

Just because he wasn't directly racing Leclerc, doesn't mean that Leclerc finding a second-a-lap of time vs the Mercedes is irrelevant. Unless you think Leclerc was desperately pushing every lap and Hamilton wasn't?

I agree that he wasn't racing Verstappen. He did a lap on three wheels and still finished comfortably ahead of him.

He is racing, he isn't just cruising around, you seem to think that Bottas is so beneath Hamilton that he doesn't even have to try...plus Hamilton's .3 advantage over Bottas...So Bottas was just cruising in his number 2 spot to make Hamilton look good

Where did I say this? Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I have said rather than addressing the evidence I've presented?

I have said, several times, that a driver can be driving to the limit of his ability but that doesn't mean that the car is turned all the way up.

If the only competition is your team mate, and the team has turned both cars down to 'X'%, then you could still be racing him as hard as you can in equal machinery (see the arguments between Rosberg and Hamilton when both were sneakily turning their engines up against team orders in Bahrain and Barcelona) but you aren't posting the quickest lap times you could if the car was turned up.

Hamilton can just cruise in the dominant Mercedes that's at least .7 seconds faster than the nearest challenger,

If you have a dominant car, why wouldn't you cruise to maximise reliabilty?

What's the benefit to blasting around at 'X' seconds a lap faster than everyone else and then having mechanical failures every other race because you've overstressed the components?

Why win by more than the safe amount?

So Bottas was just cruising in his number 2 spot to make Hamilton look good, and he did just enough to make Mercedes look good by keeping a 5 second gap to Verstappen when they could have taken him to 'gapplebees' and taken a free pit stop with ease? I guess they didn't do it because then they'd make a mockery of the sport.

You said that Mercedes had no intention of stopping again. So why do you think they would damage the car even more than the usual race wear in order to pull 30 seconds in front? They had such a comfortable lead over Verstappen (10 seconds, not 5) that Bottas was able to cruise around with bad vibrations obscuring his vision for 4 laps, then blow a tyre before the final corner, and still have time to ease off that corner, drive down the straight, tip toe around two more corners, drive off and rejoin before Verstappen overtook him. How much of a cushion do you think Mercedes feel they need?

Don't you think it's weird that Mercedes open the gap to Verstappen at a rate of a second every 2-3 laps, until it got to ten seconds. And then it mysteriously stayed there for 8 laps until Bottas had problems?

"The secret, is to win going as slowly as possible." - Niki Lauda

Thank you for your rational detailed comments and evidence in the face of absolutely inane what-aboutery and illogical clutching at straws. I don't know how you maintain your patience.