2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

[godlameroso]

I was surprised at how much the Mercs were sliding. In some slow mos during the race, they were visibly sliding across the tarmac. I presume that was as a result of the tyres giving up, which means that once they start to go you've got no chance of protecting them. I assume it's as a result of the Mercs overheating them and them then losing performance.

What causes wear like that? Usually wear on the center of the tire indicates an overinflated tire, at least on normal cars, I imagine F1 cars are still cars and the tires still comply with the laws of physics. Inner wear can be caused by camber, but the prescribed limit is too low cause that kind of wear, that kind of wear is seen with a lot of toe out. As the inside the the tire is scrubbing along the straights and even worse in the corners.

I wonder if DAS helped at all during the race, and why the rears were the problem tire for Mercedes this time around?

[214270]

HAM got the better trophies last week too.

The 70th trophies should’ve been the historic ones

[Just_a_fan]

I was surprised at how much the Mercs were sliding. In some slow mos during the race, they were visibly sliding across the tarmac. I presume that was as a result of the tyres giving up, which means that once they start to go you've got no chance of protecting them. I assume it's as a result of the Mercs overheating them and them then losing performance.

What causes wear like that? Usually wear on the center of the tire indicates an overinflated tire, at least on normal cars, I imagine F1 cars are still cars and the tires still comply with the laws of physics. Inner wear can be caused by camber, but the prescribed limit is too low cause that kind of wear, that kind of wear is seen with a lot of toe out. As the inside the the tire is scrubbing along the straights and even worse in the corners.

I wonder if DAS helped at all during the race, and why the rears were the problem tire for Mercedes this time around?

The rears were blistering in the middle of the tyre face, presumably from being overinflated.

[Sieper]

He isn’t bragging, he is just saying that they might still stand a change if they can improve the car further. Being second now illustrates That.

He'd have to win seven races with Lewis finishing second to get ahead or hope for a Lewis DNF.

I know, but the point that they can be closer Than many thought (if they can improve further, that is still sorely needed).

[dans79]

He isn’t bragging, he is just saying that they might still stand a change if they can improve the car further. Being second now illustrates That.

He'd have to win seven races with Lewis finishing second to get ahead or hope for a Lewis DNF.

I know, but the point that they can be closer Than many thought (if they can improve further, that is still sorely needed).

As I said earlier I think this is more of an aberration than anything else. if the tires and pressures are this high again I fully expect Merc will change the set-up substantially.

Now that they realize they are still vulnerable, they won't make the same mistake again.

[godlameroso]

I was surprised at how much the Mercs were sliding. In some slow mos during the race, they were visibly sliding across the tarmac. I presume that was as a result of the tyres giving up, which means that once they start to go you've got no chance of protecting them. I assume it's as a result of the Mercs overheating them and them then losing performance.

What causes wear like that? Usually wear on the center of the tire indicates an overinflated tire, at least on normal cars, I imagine F1 cars are still cars and the tires still comply with the laws of physics. Inner wear can be caused by camber, but the prescribed limit is too low cause that kind of wear, that kind of wear is seen with a lot of toe out. As the inside the the tire is scrubbing along the straights and even worse in the corners.

I wonder if DAS helped at all during the race, and why the rears were the problem tire for Mercedes this time around?

The rears were blistering in the middle of the tyre face, presumably from being overinflated.

Then why do the higher pressures affect Mercedes and not Red Bull? They're all working with the same tire pressures, having more downforce one would think it would be easier to preserve the tires. Hamilton mentioned that their pressure rise must have been greater than on the RB. In cooler temperatures, air is denser, and naturally tire pressures will be lower, cooler track temperatures will also help keep tire pressures down.

Mercedes admitted it wasn't going to have the pace to win today, do you think that has to do with how they heat up their rear tires? Maybe something that works for qualifying to get the pressures in exactly the right window? Perhaps it can give one lap pace advantage in addition to their engine, however the combination of higher pressures and higher temperatures leads to their qualifying magic to be a hindrance in the race.

There has been a lot of controversy regarding Mercedes brake ducts, so perhaps that has something to do with how they work their rear tires?

[zibby43]

I was surprised at how much the Mercs were sliding. In some slow mos during the race, they were visibly sliding across the tarmac. I presume that was as a result of the tyres giving up, which means that once they start to go you've got no chance of protecting them. I assume it's as a result of the Mercs overheating them and them then losing performance.

What causes wear like that? Usually wear on the center of the tire indicates an overinflated tire, at least on normal cars, I imagine F1 cars are still cars and the tires still comply with the laws of physics. Inner wear can be caused by camber, but the prescribed limit is too low cause that kind of wear, that kind of wear is seen with a lot of toe out. As the inside the the tire is scrubbing along the straights and even worse in the corners.

I wonder if DAS helped at all during the race, and why the rears were the problem tire for Mercedes this time around?

Tire wear wasn’t an issue for Mercedes today.

Blistering is an entirely different and separate issue from wear.

I described the factors that contribute to blistering (which is much more harmful to pace) a few posts above.

[jz11]

I think Merc expected couple safety cars, also notice how they run away at each start, basically +1sec per lap against the rest, from then on they manage everything - I suspect that they set up the car to generate more temperature in tyres (at the cost of some rolling resistance, but they have the engine power to negate that) - helps with restarts after safety cars, and good for the first few laps to build a gap quickly, DAS might be there to manage balance between the fornt/rear temperature (when needed)

This time however - no safety cars, a bit higher temperature than expected, a very conservative quali - they should have ran Q2 on hards, just like Max, and when they saw the tire degradation, they slowed way down (1st stint), to the point Max caught them, and the 2nd stint, due to the setup which generated too much heat too quickly, turned into a total disaster for them

I don't think we'll see this repeat again, anyway, others (basically RB-Max) now can start thinking of counterstrategies for the more conservative Merc setups of the future

[zeph]

Watched the race until about halfway or two thirds in, fell asleep, woke up again on the penultimate lap when Verstappen overtook Hamilton.

It was a good nap.

[zibby43]

What causes wear like that? Usually wear on the center of the tire indicates an overinflated tire, at least on normal cars, I imagine F1 cars are still cars and the tires still comply with the laws of physics. Inner wear can be caused by camber, but the prescribed limit is too low cause that kind of wear, that kind of wear is seen with a lot of toe out. As the inside the the tire is scrubbing along the straights and even worse in the corners.

I wonder if DAS helped at all during the race, and why the rears were the problem tire for Mercedes this time around?

The rears were blistering in the middle of the tyre face, presumably from being overinflated.

Then why do the higher pressures affect Mercedes and not Red Bull? They're all working with the same tire pressures, having more downforce one would think it would be easier to preserve the tires. Hamilton mentioned that their pressure rise must have been greater than on the RB. In cooler temperatures, air is denser, and naturally tire pressures will be lower, cooler track temperatures will also help keep tire pressures down.

Mercedes admitted it wasn't going to have the pace to win today, do you think that has to do with how they heat up their rear tires? Maybe something that works for qualifying to get the pressures in exactly the right window? Perhaps it can give one lap pace advantage in addition to their engine, however the combination of higher pressures and higher temperatures leads to their qualifying magic to be a hindrance in the race.

There has been a lot of controversy regarding Mercedes brake ducts, so perhaps that has something to do with how they work their rear tires?

It affects Mercedes more because they have more downforce and they put more energy through the tires, in order to be quick and take care of the harder compounds, which are the compounds used in race trim on most circuits.

Look at what Mercedes did to Red Bull in Hungary last year. Merc have been fine on tire wear since ‘19. Today was a blistering problem.

[dans79]

In my opinion, Merc failed today, because they put too much emphasis on going as fast as possible. They had the car set up accordingly as could be seen by their qualifying advantage. If they had instead optimized for stint length and taking care of the tires the qualifying gap would have been much smaller but they would have not had the problems they had during the race.

[aral]

In my opinion, Merc failed today, because they put too much emphasis on going as fast as possible. They had the car set up accordingly as could be seen by their qualifying advantage. If they had instead optimized for stint length and taking care of the tires the qualifying gap would have been much smaller but they would have not had the problems they had during the race.

Are you saying that merc were overstraining their cars and that they are not as fast as the Red Bull? The RB was going everybit as fast but was not being overdriven so as to destroy its tyres.

[dans79]

In my opinion, Merc failed today, because they put too much emphasis on going as fast as possible. They had the car set up accordingly as could be seen by their qualifying advantage. If they had instead optimized for stint length and taking care of the tires the qualifying gap would have been much smaller but they would have not had the problems they had during the race.

Are you saying that merc were overstraining their cars and that they are not as fast as the Red Bull? The RB was going everybit as fast but was not being overdriven so as to destroy its tyres.

I'm saying they had the car set up to get the best lap time possible hence why they were a second faster in qualifying than anyone else. I think this was probably driven by the fact that the drivers know the championship is between them.

If they had reduced downforce, and camber, they would not have had a one second gap in qualifying.

They would have been slower in the turns, and thus put less energy into the tires. however they would have been faster on the straits assuming they weren't gear limited due to the fact that they would have also had less drag.

in other words they should have set up the car to be just fast enough to win. They also should have went into Q2 with the hards.

[zibby43]

In my opinion, Merc failed today, because they put too much emphasis on going as fast as possible. They had the car set up accordingly as could be seen by their qualifying advantage. If they had instead optimized for stint length and taking care of the tires the qualifying gap would have been much smaller but they would have not had the problems they had during the race.

Are you saying that merc were overstraining their cars and that they are not as fast as the Red Bull? The RB was going everybit as fast but was not being overdriven so as to destroy its tyres.

It's not a matter of over-driving. Or tire degradation. It was a matter of blistering today.

Blistering occurs when a tire overheats. The excess heat causes the tread to soften, and then it starts to break away.

What factors can cause overheating? Several, but 2 of the most important are: 1) over-inflation and 2) high track temperatures. The third factor is how much the car is asking from the tires, and the Merc demands a lot due to the downforce it generates, but it is a very well-sorted car on the suspension front, which is why, the vast majority of the time since '19, Merc has had class-leading tire wear.

I also don't think there is anything Mercedes could've done in qualifying to make themselves slower in qualifying, and subsequently faster in the race. Those setup choices and the trade off between race and quali pace are more relevant when it comes to degradation, not an anomaly like blistering.

Kind of like how Mercedes goes with a low rake concept to be well-rounded and fast at the majority of circuits on the calendar, they design the car/suspension to consistently energize/work with the harder compounds that are used on race day, in a temperature range that best represents most of the calendar.

For whatever reason, the Red Bull struggles to get the best out of their car in the circumstances that apply to the vast majority of races, but on those one-off days when the tires are pumped up to levels approaching the PSI of a 19" road car tire and the track temperatures are 40+ C, the car just suddenly works.

[Fer.Fan]

In my opinion, Merc failed today, because they put too much emphasis on going as fast as possible. They had the car set up accordingly as could be seen by their qualifying advantage. If they had instead optimized for stint length and taking care of the tires the qualifying gap would have been much smaller but they would have not had the problems they had during the race.

Merc failed because of higher tyre pressue. They had massive problem with overheating tyres.

FIA and Pirelli will lower the pressue for the next race, I am sure of that.