2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

[DChemTech]

Indeed, they say it regardless of whether it's actually close. And it's quite annoying frankly; if you are dominant, just be honest about it.

I think you guys underestimate how quickly things can turn. Didn't just Silverstone II show how quickly one can go from being utterly dominant to 2nd best simply because of higher temperatures and higher mandates pressures despite having a comfortable 7 tenths to over a second of margin in the first race?

It can, in rare circumstances (which in this case allegedly included an overreaction of Merc to the front issues at Silverstone-1). However, there was really no reason that this exception would carry over to Barcelona. Mercedes was still the favorite by a large margin, and delivered as usual. There are a few occasions where things really, structurally turned; Brawn springs to mind there - but in that case the reason was clear, the team had no development budget to keep up form throughout the year, and had to rely on their headstart. For Mercedes, the situation is quite different. Which is impressive, and fair game to them, but then I would prefer they also are fairly admitting their dominance rather than pretend-play there is enormous tension.

[El Scorchio]

Beware dude, I am constantly marked negative by saying that Bottas is 2nd driver. Beware.

No, it’s because you keep saying that Mercedes conspires against Bottas in every race so he can’t finish ahead of Hamilton.

And that's clearly not what happened last week!

No, it's not. Bottas was ahead so got first call on pit stop strategy anyway as per what the team usually do, and it's already been mentioned that he HAD to pit at that point for a couple of reasons, one of which being LeClerc. Also Hamilton managed to produce a much better and longer middle stint on his tyres (which he is always much better at than Bottas) where Bottas on fresh rubber didn't make big inroads to his lead, to allow him to delay his stop and get on the better tyre for less time at the end. Hamilton just drove himself into contention for second place by extending his tyre life, even though a shot at the win was a step too far given the race conditions.

[214270]

Hamilton did an amazing job with tyre management, keeping them alive and pushing the maximum.
Just too bad it was a boring race and didn't even matter, he could have just as easily made a 3 stop and still have a dominant victory.

yessss. But consider max was down on power, because of old angine repacement. Honda is trying everything and doing very well, but still behind mercedes, still on first engine. Is a PU driven formula, you like it or not

VER had poorer tyre wear relative to the Mercs - in particular HAM. How does an old/new engine have any bearing on Sunday’s race?

[214270]

Serious question here. What exactly have you seen in RUSs short F1 career that makes you believe that a) he can match HAM? b) if I can be a bit more sensible here - that he’s a match for BOT?

Nevermind the F1 career. Russell is F2 champion in his debut season, the same as Hamilton (GP2). This is more than enough to show that Russell is very good.

I specifically asked about RUSs F1 resumé, and your response is to dismiss the relevance in favour of his F2 accomplishments? So based solely on his run in the lower formula you think he deserves to pilot the Merc 2nd seat?

[sosic2121]

No, it’s because you keep saying that Mercedes conspires against Bottas in every race so he can’t finish ahead of Hamilton.

And that's clearly not what happened last week!

No, it's not. Bottas was ahead so got first call on pit stop strategy anyway as per what the team usually do, and it's already been mentioned that he HAD to pit at that point for a couple of reasons, one of which being LeClerc. Also Hamilton managed to produce a much better and longer middle stint on his tyres (which he is always much better at than Bottas) where Bottas on fresh rubber didn't make big inroads to his lead, to allow him to delay his stop and get on the better tyre for less time at the end. Hamilton just drove himself into contention for second place by extending his tyre life, even though a shot at the win was a step too far given the race conditions.

O come on. Even Bottas isn't that naive. They boxed him early, checked his tyres, and told Hamilton he can go on. What was the purpose of that, other than to build offset to Bottas?

[Big Tea]

I don’t understand Ferrari’s radio response to Vettel with about 12 laps (don’t recall exactly) when Vettel asked if he should box for new tires or stay out. I found their response saying only “we’ve already discussed that” to be abrupt and dismissive. You can almost call it rude. I know there’s been hard feelings with their pending “divorce”, but Ferrari’s response seemed to be a little out of line, unless I missed something.

It was the other way around,it was Seb who was short wit them. He had previously asked about eeking out his tyres or using them up, and was then asked by the team if he thought he could go to the end on that set, after taking extra out of them fro several laps.

It was probably a change of plan as Charles was out and they wanted Seb to get points and it grated on him as he could have saved several laps if they agreed with him when he asked.

[El Scorchio]

And that's clearly not what happened last week!

No, it's not. Bottas was ahead so got first call on pit stop strategy anyway as per what the team usually do, and it's already been mentioned that he HAD to pit at that point for a couple of reasons, one of which being LeClerc. Also Hamilton managed to produce a much better and longer middle stint on his tyres (which he is always much better at than Bottas) where Bottas on fresh rubber didn't make big inroads to his lead, to allow him to delay his stop and get on the better tyre for less time at the end. Hamilton just drove himself into contention for second place by extending his tyre life, even though a shot at the win was a step too far given the race conditions.

O come on. Even Bottas isn't that naive. They boxed him early, checked his tyres, and told Hamilton he can go on. What was the purpose of that, other than to build offset to Bottas?

If that's really what you think, then there's little point in us having the same old tired argument about it and probably not on this thread.

However as an example, I believe they did the exact same thing at the Italian Grand Prix last year, but the other way round with the drivers, meaning Bottas was able to catch and pass Hamilton on fresher rubber later on to try and have a go at the race leader. Hardly a case of favouring Hamilton over Bottas, and if they were, then why not order Bottas to give Hamilton second place? Likewise with the Austrian GP this year, why wouldn't they have ordered Bottas to let Hamilton past in order to mitigate his penalty? Or come to think about it why don't they engineer a way to have Hamilton pass Bottas in every race where they are running line astern?

[erudite450]

And that's clearly not what happened last week!

No, it's not. Bottas was ahead so got first call on pit stop strategy anyway as per what the team usually do, and it's already been mentioned that he HAD to pit at that point for a couple of reasons, one of which being LeClerc. Also Hamilton managed to produce a much better and longer middle stint on his tyres (which he is always much better at than Bottas) where Bottas on fresh rubber didn't make big inroads to his lead, to allow him to delay his stop and get on the better tyre for less time at the end. Hamilton just drove himself into contention for second place by extending his tyre life, even though a shot at the win was a step too far given the race conditions.

O come on. Even Bottas isn't that naive. They boxed him early, checked his tyres, and told Hamilton he can go on. What was the purpose of that, other than to build offset to Bottas?

How about Monza 2019 when they did exactly the same thing to Hamilton which allowed Bottas to beat him to 2nd place? I guess Mercedes were also trying to make sure Bottas finished ahead of Hamilton? If not for his pathetically weak nature in combat, the strategy played well into his hands and he should have won that grand prix. Again, if Hamilton was pitted first allowing him undercut Bottas in Silverstone, you all would have called for Toto's head. The onus was on Bottas to make enough inroads into Hamilton's lead before Hamilton's 2nd stop to have a buffer. Going back to Monza 2019, if not for a red road block driven by Leclerc, Hamilton would have driven off into the sunset and Bottas' tyre offset would have counted for nothing. Bottas didn't have any such excuse in Silverstone as Max was way ahead of him and Hamilton even had to negotiate Leclerc before getting to him.
Please stop looking for a conspiracy where there is none. Mercedes prioritises the team ahead of their drivers.

[basti313]

I don’t understand Ferrari’s radio response to Vettel with about 12 laps (don’t recall exactly) when Vettel asked if he should box for new tires or stay out. I found their response saying only “we’ve already discussed that” to be abrupt and dismissive. You can almost call it rude. I know there’s been hard feelings with their pending “divorce”, but Ferrari’s response seemed to be a little out of line, unless I missed something.

It was the other way around,it was Seb who was short wit them. He had previously asked about eeking out his tyres or using them up, and was then asked by the team if he thought he could go to the end on that set, after taking extra out of them fro several laps.

It was probably a change of plan as Charles was out and they wanted Seb to get points and it grated on him as he could have saved several laps if they agreed with him when he asked.

Still very strange communication and very bad management...from how the race developed, there was no big question about the one stop for the Ferraris. It was strange that they pitted Vettel so early. Still understandable if they use him as a road block and maybe down on the gaps from behind at this point. But not telling him that they go to the end...no idea what caused this as it was quite clear at this point that the only reason for another stop is the chance for rain and especially then some tire life left when the rain starts would be good.

[Bsowles]

I don’t understand Ferrari’s radio response to Vettel with about 12 laps (don’t recall exactly) when Vettel asked if he should box for new tires or stay out. I found their response saying only “we’ve already discussed that” to be abrupt and dismissive. You can almost call it rude. I know there’s been hard feelings with their pending “divorce”, but Ferrari’s response seemed to be a little out of line, unless I missed something.

It was the other way around,it was Seb who was short wit them. He had previously asked about eeking out his tyres or using them up, and was then asked by the team if he thought he could go to the end on that set, after taking extra out of them fro several laps.

It was probably a change of plan as Charles was out and they wanted Seb to get points and it grated on him as he could have saved several laps if they agreed with him when he asked.

I must have missed that part about Seb previously asking about tire strategy. I never heard that part on the radio, so maybe I was refueling (grabbing a beer) at the time you’re referencing. Thanks for the reply.

[Big Tea]

I don’t understand Ferrari’s radio response to Vettel with about 12 laps (don’t recall exactly) when Vettel asked if he should box for new tires or stay out. I found their response saying only “we’ve already discussed that” to be abrupt and dismissive. You can almost call it rude. I know there’s been hard feelings with their pending “divorce”, but Ferrari’s response seemed to be a little out of line, unless I missed something.

It was the other way around,it was Seb who was short wit them. He had previously asked about eeking out his tyres or using them up, and was then asked by the team if he thought he could go to the end on that set, after taking extra out of them fro several laps.

It was probably a change of plan as Charles was out and they wanted Seb to get points and it grated on him as he could have saved several laps if they agreed with him when he asked.

Still very strange communication and very bad management...from how the race developed, there was no big question about the one stop for the Ferraris. It was strange that they pitted Vettel so early. Still understandable if they use him as a road block and maybe down on the gaps from behind at this point. But not telling him that they go to the end...no idea what caused this as it was quite clear at this point that the only reason for another stop is the chance for rain and especially then some tire life left when the rain starts would be good.

When Charles retired, he became the prime focus, so they had little choice as their initial plan was sunk

[Sieper]

No, it's not. Bottas was ahead so got first call on pit stop strategy anyway as per what the team usually do, and it's already been mentioned that he HAD to pit at that point for a couple of reasons, one of which being LeClerc. Also Hamilton managed to produce a much better and longer middle stint on his tyres (which he is always much better at than Bottas) where Bottas on fresh rubber didn't make big inroads to his lead, to allow him to delay his stop and get on the better tyre for less time at the end. Hamilton just drove himself into contention for second place by extending his tyre life, even though a shot at the win was a step too far given the race conditions.

O come on. Even Bottas isn't that naive. They boxed him early, checked his tyres, and told Hamilton he can go on. What was the purpose of that, other than to build offset to Bottas?

If that's really what you think, then there's little point in us having the same old tired argument about it and probably not on this thread.

However as an example, I believe they did the exact same thing at the Italian Grand Prix last year, but the other way round with the drivers, meaning Bottas was able to catch and pass Hamilton on fresher rubber later on to try and have a go at the race leader. Hardly a case of favouring Hamilton over Bottas, and if they were, then why not order Bottas to give Hamilton second place? Likewise with the Austrian GP this year, why wouldn't they have ordered Bottas to let Hamilton past in order to mitigate his penalty? Or come to think about it why don't they engineer a way to have Hamilton pass Bottas in every race where they are running line astern?

Because that is not needed. Hamilton is much better. Mercedes say they Don’t have 1 and 2. How would you explain “valtteri, this is James” In race one where Valterri Did much right. That would be a devastating blow to both Valtteri as well as keeping up the pretence.

In fact, they were afraid Lewis would risk it (an overtake attempt) and ordered both drivers to not use kerbs. The official reason thought off was a sensor issue. This early on they just wanted max points. Lewis understood that. Did give a small complaint that valtteri kept using kerbs and the team duly ordered Valtteri off the curbs again.

[SiLo]

I don’t understand Ferrari’s radio response to Vettel with about 12 laps (don’t recall exactly) when Vettel asked if he should box for new tires or stay out. I found their response saying only “we’ve already discussed that” to be abrupt and dismissive. You can almost call it rude. I know there’s been hard feelings with their pending “divorce”, but Ferrari’s response seemed to be a little out of line, unless I missed something.

It was the other way around,it was Seb who was short wit them. He had previously asked about eeking out his tyres or using them up, and was then asked by the team if he thought he could go to the end on that set, after taking extra out of them fro several laps.

It was probably a change of plan as Charles was out and they wanted Seb to get points and it grated on him as he could have saved several laps if they agreed with him when he asked.

I must have missed that part about Seb previously asking about tire strategy. I never heard that part on the radio, so maybe I was refueling (grabbing a beer) at the time you’re referencing. Thanks for the reply.

Here is the full exchange. I believe he was told to push for three laps before this with no tyre saving.

[Mchamilton]

Serious question here. What exactly have you seen in RUSs short F1 career that makes you believe that a) he can match HAM? b) if I can be a bit more sensible here - that he’s a match for BOT?

Nevermind the F1 career. Russell is F2 champion in his debut season, the same as Hamilton (GP2). This is more than enough to show that Russell is very good.

I specifically asked about RUSs F1 resumé, and your response is to dismiss the relevance in favour of his F2 accomplishments? So based solely on his run in the lower formula you think he deserves to pilot the Merc 2nd seat?

lewis got the 'second' seat at mclaren based on his lower formula results did he not?

[El Scorchio]

O come on. Even Bottas isn't that naive. They boxed him early, checked his tyres, and told Hamilton he can go on. What was the purpose of that, other than to build offset to Bottas?

If that's really what you think, then there's little point in us having the same old tired argument about it and probably not on this thread.

However as an example, I believe they did the exact same thing at the Italian Grand Prix last year, but the other way round with the drivers, meaning Bottas was able to catch and pass Hamilton on fresher rubber later on to try and have a go at the race leader. Hardly a case of favouring Hamilton over Bottas, and if they were, then why not order Bottas to give Hamilton second place? Likewise with the Austrian GP this year, why wouldn't they have ordered Bottas to let Hamilton past in order to mitigate his penalty? Or come to think about it why don't they engineer a way to have Hamilton pass Bottas in every race where they are running line astern?

Because that is not needed. Hamilton is much better. Mercedes say they Don’t have 1 and 2. How would you explain “valtteri, this is James” In race one where Valterri Did much right. That would be a devastating blow to both Valtteri as well as keeping up the pretence.

In fact, they were afraid Lewis would risk it (an overtake attempt) and ordered both drivers to not use kerbs. The official reason thought off was a sensor issue. This early on they just wanted max points. Lewis understood that. Did give a small complaint that valtteri kept using kerbs and the team duly ordered Valtteri off the curbs again.

Indeed. They don't need to impose any team orders because the natural performance differential between the drivers renders it obselete. I can see it happening if they are in a situation where Bottas is not in title contention but Hamilton is and could do with the points, which there is an outside chance of toward the end of this season.

Worth noting that there was obviously no #1 and #2 when Rosberg was the other driver as well, otherwise they'd have engineered Hamilton the title in 2016, and certainly given themselves a far less tempestuous three years than they had.