2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

[drunkf1fan]

Last year Bottas finished 87 points behind Hamilton, but still 48 in front of Max with much of that coming from seconds
If Hamilton was not there he would probably have picked up 25's instead of 18's and been clear winner anyway.

A replacement for Lewis in numbers if not in fact. What more can a team mate do?

Not sure what the relevance is, where did he finish in 2017 and 2018? Mercedes can't plan assuming they'll have a dominant car in the future, if they do then the year they get a competitive car they'll fail. What more can a team mate do, drive better, that simple really. Again how many times in 17/18 was Bottas the slowest of the 6 front runners and how many times did he drop points because of that. Races Hamilton won and Bottas was 30 seconds behind. He didn't finish 2nd in the championship either year and had he been the lead driver and Hamilton not there then Merc would have lost both titles.

Stroll could win a title as lead driver in a dominant Mercedes year, but in a 2017 season he'd also be the reason they lost both titles as he's no where near the level required.

[Big Tea]

Last year Bottas finished 87 points behind Hamilton, but still 48 in front of Max with much of that coming from seconds
If Hamilton was not there he would probably have picked up 25's instead of 18's and been clear winner anyway.

A replacement for Lewis in numbers if not in fact. What more can a team mate do?

Not sure what the relevance is, where did he finish in 2017 and 2018? Mercedes can't plan assuming they'll have a dominant car in the future, if they do then the year they get a competitive car they'll fail. What more can a team mate do, drive better, that simple really. Again how many times in 17/18 was Bottas the slowest of the 6 front runners and how many times did he drop points because of that. Races Hamilton won and Bottas was 30 seconds behind. He didn't finish 2nd in the championship either year and had he been the lead driver and Hamilton not there then Merc would have lost both titles.

Stroll could win a title as lead driver in a dominant Mercedes year, but in a 2017 season he'd also be the reason they lost both titles as he's no where near the level required.

Would he not have been re-signed on his performance in 2019? They must have been happy with his performance in previous years to still be there in 2019.

If as you say 'anyone' could win in that car, why not use the driver they already have? They know he fits in, another may not

[henry]

Interesting. I thought DAS allowed optimum toe in/out to be different for straights and corners so it would be used all the time, not just as a tyre warming instrument.

Personally I think the optimising of toe is done by a mechanism in the steering and DAS is a supplementary input to that mechanism that overrides the automatic setting to put more heat in the tyres.

Wouldn’t that be illegal. The steering set-up must remain unchanged. If you push and pull and it that way influence toe-in that is considered steering, but if this system could adjust (Optimize) toe in automatically wouldn’t that be illegal?

By optimise I mean that instead of the movement of the ends of the rack having a linear relationship with steering wheel movement they have a mechanism that makes it non linear, in FIA speak the relation between steering wheel movement and wheel movement is non-monotonic. They can potentially set up straight ahead with low toe and Increase the toe at higher locks. This would essentially be a programmable Ackerman.

I don’t think that would be illegal this year. Next year it will be:

10.4.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels must be uniquely defined by driver input to a single steering wheel permitted to have only one degree of freedom, which must be rotational, and the relationship between the angle of each steered wheel to the angle of the steering wheel must be a strictly monotonic function.

[zibby43]

Remind me, who was leading the Driver’s Championship after Hungary in 2017?

And again, who was leading the Driver’s Championship and about to take a commanding lead during the German GP in 2018?

Think it was a German guy wearing red overalls.

Yet in both 2017 & 2018 Mercedes wrapped up both titles with three or four races to go almost. 2018 took a bit longer I think. That summer break lead is always thrown around as if Ferrari were miles ahead...
Ferrari's failures always came after the summer break. Be it reliability in 2017 or updates that didn't work as designed in 2018. Merc go from strength to strength after the summer break with both team and driver. They were always close enough that Ferrari could not extend their advantage far enough at the start of the year to have some safety margin.

So wait, it’s only a competition if it goes down to the last race with another constructor? Vettel would’ve had a huge lead over Hamilton in Germany if he had won the race.

And it’s Merc’s fault that Ferrari/Vettel self-destructed?

I’m tired of the fairy tale that Merc didn’t have competition after the rules change in 2017. Which relates to the other fairy tale of the rules never changing to stop Merc.

[Sieper]

Personally I think the optimising of toe is done by a mechanism in the steering and DAS is a supplementary input to that mechanism that overrides the automatic setting to put more heat in the tyres.

Wouldn’t that be illegal. The steering set-up must remain unchanged. If you push and pull and it that way influence toe-in that is considered steering, but if this system could adjust (Optimize) toe in automatically wouldn’t that be illegal?

By optimise I mean that instead of the movement of the ends of the rack having a linear relationship with steering wheel movement they have a mechanism that makes it non linear, in FIA speak the relation between steering wheel movement and wheel movement is non-monotonic. They can potentially set up straight ahead with low toe and Increase the toe at higher locks. This would essentially be a programmable Ackerman.

I don’t think that would be illegal this year. Next year it will be:

10.4.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels must be uniquely defined by driver input to a single steering wheel permitted to have only one degree of freedom, which must be rotational, and the relationship between the angle of each steered wheel to the angle of the steering wheel must be a strictly monotonic function.

This deserves a plus! Can’t give it here. Thanks for your explanation.

[Mchamilton]

Wouldn’t that be illegal. The steering set-up must remain unchanged. If you push and pull and it that way influence toe-in that is considered steering, but if this system could adjust (Optimize) toe in automatically wouldn’t that be illegal?

By optimise I mean that instead of the movement of the ends of the rack having a linear relationship with steering wheel movement they have a mechanism that makes it non linear, in FIA speak the relation between steering wheel movement and wheel movement is non-monotonic. They can potentially set up straight ahead with low toe and Increase the toe at higher locks. This would essentially be a programmable Ackerman.

I don’t think that would be illegal this year. Next year it will be:

10.4.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels must be uniquely defined by driver input to a single steering wheel permitted to have only one degree of freedom, which must be rotational, and the relationship between the angle of each steered wheel to the angle of the steering wheel must be a strictly monotonic function.

This deserves a plus! Can’t give it here. Thanks for your explanation.

But the static toe setting play a huge role in how the car feels to the driver on turn in, that would be huge hurdle for a driver to overcome for the sake of what would likely be a minimal gain in cornering speed

[dans79]

Personally I think the optimising of toe is done by a mechanism in the steering and DAS is a supplementary input to that mechanism that overrides the automatic setting to put more heat in the tyres.

Wouldn’t that be illegal. The steering set-up must remain unchanged. If you push and pull and it that way influence toe-in that is considered steering, but if this system could adjust (Optimize) toe in automatically wouldn’t that be illegal?

By optimise I mean that instead of the movement of the ends of the rack having a linear relationship with steering wheel movement they have a mechanism that makes it non linear, in FIA speak the relation between steering wheel movement and wheel movement is non-monotonic. They can potentially set up straight ahead with low toe and Increase the toe at higher locks. This would essentially be a programmable Ackerman.

I don’t think that would be illegal this year. Next year it will be:

10.4.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels must be uniquely defined by driver input to a single steering wheel permitted to have only one degree of freedom, which must be rotational, and the relationship between the angle of each steered wheel to the angle of the steering wheel must be a strictly monotonic function.

Ackerman will still be legal next year, DAS won't!

[Mamba]

So wait, it’s only a competition if it goes down to the last race with another constructor? Vettel would’ve had a huge lead over Hamilton in Germany if he had won the race.

And it’s Merc’s fault that Ferrari/Vettel self-destructed?

I’m tired of the fairy tale that Merc didn’t have competition after the rules change in 2017. Which relates to the other fairy tale of the rules never changing to stop Merc.

The earlier the titles are wrapped up the less competition you have. '17 & '18 started close but Mercedes were never from the top and they only got better while Ferrari stagnated.

Considering Hamilton won the race in Germany '18 as he had a massive pace advantage he would easily have reached the podium had Vettel not slipped of. We had a huge points swing but the "massive" gain wasn't there.

There is another thread on the regulations & Merc, but considering there was no aerodynamic philosophy change from '16 - '17 as was present going from '08 - '09 it wasn't as big change as its made out with reference to how you run your car with what aero philosophy. Ferrari just managed to close the gap quite a lot and surpassed here & there. They were never Merc levels of domination ahead - even when they were in the title hunt.

[henry]

By optimise I mean that instead of the movement of the ends of the rack having a linear relationship with steering wheel movement they have a mechanism that makes it non linear, in FIA speak the relation between steering wheel movement and wheel movement is non-monotonic. They can potentially set up straight ahead with low toe and Increase the toe at higher locks. This would essentially be a programmable Ackerman.

I don’t think that would be illegal this year. Next year it will be:

This deserves a plus! Can’t give it here. Thanks for your explanation.

But the static toe setting play a huge role in how the car feels to the driver on turn in, that would be huge hurdle for a driver to overcome for the sake of what would likely be a minimal gain in cornering speed

I think the likely gains are not in cornering speed but tyre management. There are all sorts of hurdles these drivers manage. For instance Pushrod on upright must give some interesting feedback to the drivers, but they learn to cope because it makes them faster.

[henry]

Wouldn’t that be illegal. The steering set-up must remain unchanged. If you push and pull and it that way influence toe-in that is considered steering, but if this system could adjust (Optimize) toe in automatically wouldn’t that be illegal?

By optimise I mean that instead of the movement of the ends of the rack having a linear relationship with steering wheel movement they have a mechanism that makes it non linear, in FIA speak the relation between steering wheel movement and wheel movement is non-monotonic. They can potentially set up straight ahead with low toe and Increase the toe at higher locks. This would essentially be a programmable Ackerman.

I don’t think that would be illegal this year. Next year it will be:

10.4.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels must be uniquely defined by driver input to a single steering wheel permitted to have only one degree of freedom, which must be rotational, and the relationship between the angle of each steered wheel to the angle of the steering wheel must be a strictly monotonic function.

Ackerman will still be legal next year, DAS won't!

Apparently so.

[Schuttelberg]

Remind me, who was leading the Driver’s Championship after Hungary in 2017?

And again, who was leading the Driver’s Championship and about to take a commanding lead during the German GP in 2018?

Think it was a German guy wearing red overalls.

Yet in both 2017 & 2018 Mercedes wrapped up both titles with three or four races to go almost. 2018 took a bit longer I think. That summer break lead is always thrown around as if Ferrari were miles ahead...
Ferrari's failures always came after the summer break. Be it reliability in 2017 or updates that didn't work as designed in 2018. Merc go from strength to strength after the summer break with both team and driver. They were always close enough that Ferrari could not extend their advantage far enough at the start of the year to have some safety margin.

So wait, it’s only a competition if it goes down to the last race with another constructor? Vettel would’ve had a huge lead over Hamilton in Germany if he had won the race.

And it’s Merc’s fault that Ferrari/Vettel self-destructed?

I’m tired of the fairy tale that Merc didn’t have competition after the rules change in 2017. Which relates to the other fairy tale of the rules never changing to stop Merc.

I have seen some idiotic posts of the year but boy does this one take the cake.

Vettel was 17 points behind Hamilton after this race and the worst that Hamilton could have finished was 2nd considering the offset strategy and the fact that 4th was the worst a Ferrari/Mercedes could finish no matter where they started provided they had a normal race.

Ferrari kept Vettel behind Raikkonen forever in that race piling on the pressure on him in spite of giving Kimi the better strategy (although Seb qualified on pole) before finally letting him past. After the weather took a turn for the worst for Ferrari, Hamilton was on the better tyre and might have won the race anyway.

Vettel made a mistake far smaller than your hero made in 2019 in the same venue under much more pressure and went out of the race.

This theory that Mercedes was slower than Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 and that Hamilton won the titles in a slower car is a desperate attempt to glorify his dominance. Far cry from the truth. But hey, whatever makes you climax!

[SiLo]

Yet in both 2017 & 2018 Mercedes wrapped up both titles with three or four races to go almost. 2018 took a bit longer I think. That summer break lead is always thrown around as if Ferrari were miles ahead...
Ferrari's failures always came after the summer break. Be it reliability in 2017 or updates that didn't work as designed in 2018. Merc go from strength to strength after the summer break with both team and driver. They were always close enough that Ferrari could not extend their advantage far enough at the start of the year to have some safety margin.

So wait, it’s only a competition if it goes down to the last race with another constructor? Vettel would’ve had a huge lead over Hamilton in Germany if he had won the race.

And it’s Merc’s fault that Ferrari/Vettel self-destructed?

I’m tired of the fairy tale that Merc didn’t have competition after the rules change in 2017. Which relates to the other fairy tale of the rules never changing to stop Merc.

I have seen some idiotic posts of the year but boy does this one take the cake.

Vettel was 17 points behind Hamilton after this race and the worst that Hamilton could have finished was 2nd considering the offset strategy and the fact that 4th was the worst a Ferrari/Mercedes could finish no matter where they started provided they had a normal race.

Ferrari kept Vettel behind Raikkonen forever in that race piling on the pressure on him in spite of giving Kimi the better strategy (although Seb qualified on pole) before finally letting him past. After the weather took a turn for the worst for Ferrari, Hamilton was on the better tyre and might have won the race anyway.

Vettel made a mistake far smaller than your hero made in 2019 in the same venue under much more pressure and went out of the race.

This theory that Mercedes was slower than Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 and that Hamilton won the titles in a slower car is a desperate attempt to glorify his dominance. Far cry from the truth. But hey, whatever makes you climax!

Vettel was leading the championship all the way until Belgium. Which is more than 50% of the season. After that Lewis and Mercedes really shashed it out of the park. But for a greater portion of the year the Ferrari was the faster package in the hands of Vettel.


2018 was closer, but all fell apart after Germany with both Vettel and Ferrari dropping the ball.

[zibby43]

Yet in both 2017 & 2018 Mercedes wrapped up both titles with three or four races to go almost. 2018 took a bit longer I think. That summer break lead is always thrown around as if Ferrari were miles ahead...
Ferrari's failures always came after the summer break. Be it reliability in 2017 or updates that didn't work as designed in 2018. Merc go from strength to strength after the summer break with both team and driver. They were always close enough that Ferrari could not extend their advantage far enough at the start of the year to have some safety margin.

So wait, it’s only a competition if it goes down to the last race with another constructor? Vettel would’ve had a huge lead over Hamilton in Germany if he had won the race.

And it’s Merc’s fault that Ferrari/Vettel self-destructed?

I’m tired of the fairy tale that Merc didn’t have competition after the rules change in 2017. Which relates to the other fairy tale of the rules never changing to stop Merc.

I have seen some idiotic posts of the year but boy does this one take the cake.

Vettel was 17 points behind Hamilton after this race and the worst that Hamilton could have finished was 2nd considering the offset strategy and the fact that 4th was the worst a Ferrari/Mercedes could finish no matter where they started provided they had a normal race.

Ferrari kept Vettel behind Raikkonen forever in that race piling on the pressure on him in spite of giving Kimi the better strategy (although Seb qualified on pole) before finally letting him past. After the weather took a turn for the worst for Ferrari, Hamilton was on the better tyre and might have won the race anyway.

Vettel made a mistake far smaller than your hero made in 2019 in the same venue under much more pressure and went out of the race.

This theory that Mercedes was slower than Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 and that Hamilton won the titles in a slower car is a desperate attempt to glorify his dominance. Far cry from the truth. But hey, whatever makes you climax!

Seems like I touched a nerve lol.

I won’t stoop to ad hominem in dismantling your post. Funny thing is, I actually really like and respect Vettel. It’s just an objective fact that he and Ferrari self-destructed after that.

Vettel had just won the British GP, was leading the championship, and the German GP, and would’ve extended his lead had he not crashed.

That’s just a fact. Nowhere did I ever claim that that Mercedes had a slower car on the balance of either of those seasons, but it did swing from race-to-race.

And that was my point. Ferrari was competitive both of those seasons. Vettel wasn’t ahead in the championships halfway through the seasons because Merc were trash.

It was because Vettel and Ferrari were good (up until they weren’t). Was trying to give them a compliment.

[zibby43]

So wait, it’s only a competition if it goes down to the last race with another constructor? Vettel would’ve had a huge lead over Hamilton in Germany if he had won the race.

And it’s Merc’s fault that Ferrari/Vettel self-destructed?

I’m tired of the fairy tale that Merc didn’t have competition after the rules change in 2017. Which relates to the other fairy tale of the rules never changing to stop Merc.

I have seen some idiotic posts of the year but boy does this one take the cake.

Vettel was 17 points behind Hamilton after this race and the worst that Hamilton could have finished was 2nd considering the offset strategy and the fact that 4th was the worst a Ferrari/Mercedes could finish no matter where they started provided they had a normal race.

Ferrari kept Vettel behind Raikkonen forever in that race piling on the pressure on him in spite of giving Kimi the better strategy (although Seb qualified on pole) before finally letting him past. After the weather took a turn for the worst for Ferrari, Hamilton was on the better tyre and might have won the race anyway.

Vettel made a mistake far smaller than your hero made in 2019 in the same venue under much more pressure and went out of the race.

This theory that Mercedes was slower than Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 and that Hamilton won the titles in a slower car is a desperate attempt to glorify his dominance. Far cry from the truth. But hey, whatever makes you climax!

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... points.jpg

Vettel was leading the championship all the way until Belgium. Which is more than 50% of the season. After that Lewis and Mercedes really shashed it out of the park. But for a greater portion of the year the Ferrari was the faster package in the hands of Vettel.

https://i.redd.it/hp751rb1cpy11.png
2018 was closer, but all fell apart after Germany with both Vettel and Ferrari dropping the ball.

Bingo.

[PlatinumZealot]

The 2017 and 2018 Ferrari could have been theoretically 3 tenths faster in the hands of "Charles"... The world will never know for sure... but it it is something I consider.