FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

[Big Tea]

Are there any ideas at what teams could be doing with the ERS to skirt the rules? I thought they were pretty clear cut in what you can and cannot do.

By the sound of it, they are not sure what they can 'count' being moved or stored. To enforce all the rules they have to know what is happening. Only 1000 allowed through the gate ( but 50 jump over the fence ) meets the rule, but is nor right

[feni_remmen]

I’ve not read what’s been said before in this thread and I think I have only some appreciation of some of the issues with what I’m about to say, but I contend that a fix is just to not let the drive change any of these setting from the cockpit. I know there’s a myriad of issues with this, but I’d just like to see cars set to the maximum they want to choose and then let the performance be limited at the drivers right foot (and I appreciate that this isn’t even realistic). 1 setting until next time they are stationary and in the pits. Or let them pick 1 setting only for Qualifying and the race!

[dren]

Sounds like the FIA wants all of the aux system designs submitted, so I wonder if there is some grey area there?

[dans79]

By the sound of it, they are not sure what they can 'count' being moved or stored. To enforce all the rules they have to know what is happening. Only 1000 allowed through the gate ( but 50 jump over the fence ) meets the rule, but is nor right

• They are measuring fuel flow with 2 different sensors, with one having an encrypted signal so that it can't be tampered with.
• They are measuring power flow in and out of the ES, MGU-K.
• they have sensors measuring torque coming out of the driveshaft.
• They measure the fuel and the air inlet temperature
• Not to mention the huge list of other sensors

Unless the sensors are being tampered with, or someone is blatantly cheating in another way, it's hard to see what more they need to track/measure. They are monitoring all the inputs, outputs, and the important steps in between.

[Big Tea]

By the sound of it, they are not sure what they can 'count' being moved or stored. To enforce all the rules they have to know what is happening. Only 1000 allowed through the gate ( but 50 jump over the fence ) meets the rule, but is nor right

• They are measuring fuel flow with 2 different sensors, with one having an encrypted signal so that it can't be tampered with.
• They are measuring power flow in and out of the ES, MGU-K.
• they have sensors measuring torque coming out of the driveshaft.
• They measure the fuel and the air inlet temperature
• Not to mention the huge list of other sensors

Unless the sensors are being tampered with, or someone is blatantly cheating in another way, it's hard to see what more they need to track/measure. They are monitoring all the inputs, outputs, and the important steps in between.

So what are they looking for they can not find with all the above. They must think sensors are being fiddled or bypassed?

Was there not some reference to the conversion A/C D/c at some point? (not sure)

[dans79]

Was there not some reference to the conversion A/C D/c at some point? (not sure)

They made that loophole themselves by assuming no one could do better than a conversion efficiency of 0.95. If your efficiency factor is better than 0.95, it's basically free power. Personally, I would have assumed 1.00 and told the teams to just deal with it.

Technical regulation 5.2.2

Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.

When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).

Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.

[henry]

As I understand it an issue with measuring the fuel flow was that the flow could be arranged to cycle at a frequency and in phase with the flow meter’s sampling rate. Only the low points in the cycle being read.

It seems possible that the same technique could be applied to the electrical flow measurement. Maybe they want to see the auxiliary circuit layout to check for the possibility that the sample reporting circuit is being checked and fed back into the battery management and/or motor control circuits. This could be direct or more likely through electromagnetic coupling. This would potentially distort K power and ES SOC figures.

There is a further complication in the monitoring of the per lap energy flows. The flows are defined between ES and K, but the flows into and out of the two sensors can also see the flows into and out of the MGU-H. If a kiloJoule passes through the ES sensor how do they tell whether it ends up in the H or K or both? Given that the black box between ES sensor and K sensor contains several circuits and is allowed a small amount of storage I find it difficult to see how they apportion the energy flows. More opportunity for grey behaviour?

In passing I note that they now allow the ES to be charged, by only 100kJ, while stationary in the pits or garage during Qualifying or the race. They used to explicitly outlaw this. I can’t see why This change exists but often these detail changes she’d light on how these systems are used.

[dans79]

There is a further complication in the monitoring of the per lap energy flows. The flows are defined between ES and K, but the flows into and out of the two sensors can also see the flows into and out of the MGU-H. If a kiloJoule passes through the ES sensor how do they tell whether it ends up in the H or K or both? Given that the black box between ES sensor and K sensor contains several circuits and is allowed a small amount of storage I find it difficult to see how they apportion the energy flows. More opportunity for grey behaviour?

Given the simplicity of the flow diagram at the end of the technical regulations, you would hope they just used enough sensors (7), and reviewed the circuit traces to ensure compliance. Given the way the diagram is layed out, id throw the book at anyone caught messing around, it's pretty obvious how the CU is supposed to be used.

[henry]

There is a further complication in the monitoring of the per lap energy flows. The flows are defined between ES and K, but the flows into and out of the two sensors can also see the flows into and out of the MGU-H. If a kiloJoule passes through the ES sensor how do they tell whether it ends up in the H or K or both? Given that the black box between ES sensor and K sensor contains several circuits and is allowed a small amount of storage I find it difficult to see how they apportion the energy flows. More opportunity for grey behaviour?

Given the simplicity of the flow diagram at the end of the technical regulations, you would hope they just used enough sensors (7), and reviewed the circuit traces to ensure compliance. Given the way the diagram is layed out, id throw the book at anyone caught messing around, it's pretty obvious how the CU is supposed to be used.

You would have thought that about fuel flow would you not?

There are just 2 sensors in the flow diagram. If, for instance, they have found a way to extend K use beyond the 4/2kJ the other sensors, and their traces, would not be much use.

I’m not saying this is happening. I’m just discussing the technology.

[dans79]

You would have thought that about fuel flow would you not?

I would, and that's where the throwing the book at them comes into play. IMO, the major problem with the FIA in matters like this, is the FIA trusts the teams to much, and puts to much emphasis on not upsetting them.

When it comes to legality in F1, I think the FIA should approach a protest/technical concern with the mindset of guilty until the team proves themself innocent.

If the FIA constantly wield the proverbial big stick, I think grey area issues/concerns would be greatly reduced.

There are just 2 sensors in the flow diagram.

I'm aware, and it's a rather dim methodology imo. Because of this, they have to estimate using a torque sensor or something similar on the MGU-K if memory serves as a way of checking compliance.

[/quote]
If, for instance, they have found a way to extend K use beyond the 4/2kJ the other sensors, and their traces, would not be much use.
[/quote]

I think you missed my point, I was referring to having sensors and circuitry like this. And it would actually require 6 (if I had counted correctly the first time).

• ES - sensor 1 - CU (isolated circuitry unit 1) - sensor 2 - MGU-H
• ES - sensor 3 - CU (isolated circuitry unit 2) - sensor 4 - MGU-K
• MGU-K - sensor 5 - CU (isolated circuitry unit 3) - sensor 6 - MGU-H

[63l8qrrfy6]

Let's not forget that in 2018, after much head scratching, the FIA considered necessary to add additional IVT sensors to the Ferrari battery. That tells me that all engine makers could potentially exploit some methods of moving energy about in an unregulated manner.

If anything, the question is what took them so long to look into this ?

[Tommy Cookers]

Was there not some reference to the conversion A/C D/c at some point? (not sure)

They made that loophole themselves by assuming no one could do better than a conversion efficiency of 0.95. If your efficiency factor is better than 0.95, it's basically free power. Personally, I would have assumed 1.00 and told the teams to just deal with it. .....
.....Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.

afaik ....
not as posted above .....

0.95 is the permitted ratio from measured power in the DC line to K mechanical power delivered into the crankshaft nose
so if all electrical and mechanical losses are only 4% your K can add 1% more ie put 121.2 kW into the nose

[henry]

[

I think you missed my point, I was referring to having sensors and circuitry like this. And it would actually require 6 (if I had counted correctly the first time).

• ES - sensor 1 - CU (isolated circuitry unit 1) - sensor 2 - MGU-H
• ES - sensor 3 - CU (isolated circuitry unit 2) - sensor 4 - MGU-K
• MGU-K - sensor 5 - CU (isolated circuitry unit 3) - sensor 6 - MGU-H

You’re right, I hadn’t spotted that you were proposing a different sensor scheme.

I’m thonk you’d need some different sensors since current to the two motors is not DC.

[Wouter]

Just a rumor?

Ban on 'quali modes' to be delayed until the Italian Grand Prix

The FIA advised teams last week it would require them to use the same engine modes in qualifying and the race from next week's Belgian Grand Prix. However that change is now understood to been delayed until the following round of the championship, the Italian Grand Prix at Monza, one week later.

The new restriction will be enforced through a technical directive. Delaying its introduction will ensure teams have the necessary time to complete engine dynamometer tests in preparation for the change.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/20/ban ... rand-prix/

[aleks_ader]

Standard sealed electronics would safe that. And standard electric FIA sealed wiring loom would solve that. I think. Loom could be custom made for team needs (lenght).