Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

[Wass85]

You joking or something. Your first sentence...... "Unless they were both team mates, then its all guesswork"

You then go to say Schumacher WAS faster in race and qualy but I don't recall them ever being team mates



The only measurement we have on this whole debate is Nico Rosberg.

Lewis > Nico > Michael

all head to head in the same car, they were all team mates, so we have an answer.

Before you say anything about Michael being old ect, its on him. He chose to come back, he chose to put his record at risk, he lost to Nico who lost to Lewis. The same will probably happen to Lewis. If Russell comes in, beats him in head to head during their time together, and then goes on to beat all of Lewis records, that in my book makes him better than Lewis. Especially if he does it clean and without his team mate having his hands tied behind his back.

Although obviously age matters it was probably more the fact that he hadn't been in a F1 car for 3 years that hurt him most, if not then how do you explain Schumacher being closer to Rosberg in 2012 in their 3 seasons partnered together? If it was just a case of age then Schumacher would be performing the worst in that last year.

Of course it's all guesswork but you just have to step back and think for a second, you honestly think Bottas would be that close to a prime Schumacher in qualifying to what he is to Hamilton now?

If Bottas is as close as he is to Hamilton, why would he be miles away from Schumacher ? One of Bottas' strengths is his qualy pace. But rather than saying Bottas is fast in qualy, you want it to be Hamilton is slow in qualy

Again you are getting carried away.

Of course Bottas is fast but we are talking best of the best here and if you want to believe the Finn would be within a tenth of a prime Schumacher then I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion.

You didn't answer my points about Rosberg/Schumacher?

[Moore77]

If Bottas is as close as he is to Hamilton, why would he be miles away from Schumacher ? One of Bottas' strengths is his qualy pace. But rather than saying Bottas is fast in qualy, you want it to be Hamilton is slow in qualy

Because, F1's data analytics say so! While it is still not the gospel of truth, but I would any day trust that instead of any armchair expert here. Every athlete loses speed through age and that is where Hamilton is now. He is 35 and an experienced racer, but couldn't be his own former younger self when it comes to speed. Bottas is at the peak of what he can do and seems closer. Very natural, just that some exceptional athletes would still be better against the available competitors, despite not being at their best. Hence, Bottas could definitely have been far behind Hamilton of the yore and even further of Schumacher's.

[mkay]

If Bottas is as close as he is to Hamilton, why would he be miles away from Schumacher ? One of Bottas' strengths is his qualy pace. But rather than saying Bottas is fast in qualy, you want it to be Hamilton is slow in qualy

Because, F1's data analytics say so! While it is still not the gospel of truth, but I would any day trust that instead of any armchair expert here. Every athlete loses speed through age and that is where Hamilton is now. He is 35 and an experienced racer, but couldn't be his own former younger self when it comes to speed. Bottas is at the peak of what he can do and seems closer. Very natural, just that some exceptional athletes would still be better against the available competitors, despite not being at their best. Hence, Bottas could definitely have been far behind Hamilton of the yore and even further of Schumacher's.

What does that say about the quality of the current F1 driver landscape when an "old fart" like Hamilton gets pole by nearly 1.5s in a wet Styrian qualifying session?!

[Moore77]

If Bottas is as close as he is to Hamilton, why would he be miles away from Schumacher ? One of Bottas' strengths is his qualy pace. But rather than saying Bottas is fast in qualy, you want it to be Hamilton is slow in qualy

Because, F1's data analytics say so! While it is still not the gospel of truth, but I would any day trust that instead of any armchair expert here. Every athlete loses speed through age and that is where Hamilton is now. He is 35 and an experienced racer, but couldn't be his own former younger self when it comes to speed. Bottas is at the peak of what he can do and seems closer. Very natural, just that some exceptional athletes would still be better against the available competitors, despite not being at their best. Hence, Bottas could definitely have been far behind Hamilton of the yore and even further of Schumacher's.

What does that say about the quality of the current F1 driver landscape when an "old fart" like Hamilton gets pole by nearly 1.5s in a wet Styrian qualifying session?!

An absolutely beast of a machine that W11 is! Just so that if you have forgotten, W05 was 2 second a lap quicker in Bahrain when the dog fight started between two Mercedes cars. In a recent Bahrain 2014 debrief, James Vowels mentioned they were nowhere close to the maximum of that car! What does that say about W05?

[Wass85]

Another point that goes in Hamilton's favour is telemetry, yes they had it in Schumacher's day but it was nowhere near as detailed as today.

Don't forget that Bottas likely has access to all of Hamilton's data and vice versa.

When a driver enters a top team with a top car you would have to think that this team can develop and improve a driver better than a midfield team.

Surely with all the data at hand they can get the most out of his potential that lesser teams just can't do.

In other words they leave a better driver than when they arrived.

[NathanOlder]

Although obviously age matters it was probably more the fact that he hadn't been in a F1 car for 3 years that hurt him most, if not then how do you explain Schumacher being closer to Rosberg in 2012 in their 3 seasons partnered together? If it was just a case of age then Schumacher would be performing the worst in that last year.

Of course it's all guesswork but you just have to step back and think for a second, you honestly think Bottas would be that close to a prime Schumacher in qualifying to what he is to Hamilton now?

If Bottas is as close as he is to Hamilton, why would he be miles away from Schumacher ? One of Bottas' strengths is his qualy pace. But rather than saying Bottas is fast in qualy, you want it to be Hamilton is slow in qualy

Again you are getting carried away.

Of course Bottas is fast but we are talking best of the best here and if you want to believe the Finn would be within a tenth of a prime Schumacher then I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion.

You didn't answer my points about Rosberg/Schumacher?

I would answer that quite simply with, after a few years in the team, Michael had now had enough input in to the cars direction and the car was now more to his liking. But I dont see how he was only closer in 2012, I though 2011 was a much better year for Michael. He was very close to Nico. So after the 1 year of being able to add his input to help the direction of the car go his way , he started to produce better results.

And why couldnt Bottas get within a tenth of Michael in qualy ? He does it often with Lewis. Or do you think Michael was really half a second faster than Lewis in qualy ?

[NathanOlder]

Another point that goes in Hamilton's favour is telemetry, yes they had it in Schumacher's day but it was nowhere near as detailed as today.

Don't forget that Bottas likely has access to all of Hamilton's data and vice versa.

When a driver enters a top team with a top car you would have to think that this team can develop and improve a driver better than a midfield team.

Surely with all the data at hand they can get the most out of his potential that lesser teams just can't do.

In other words they leave a better driver than when they arrived.

Speaking of telemetry, as you clearly know. Could you explain in what ways its far more detailed today ? or is it just an educated guess ?

[tangodjango]

Another point that goes in Hamilton's favour is telemetry, yes they had it in Schumacher's day but it was nowhere near as detailed as today.

Don't forget that Bottas likely has access to all of Hamilton's data and vice versa.

When a driver enters a top team with a top car you would have to think that this team can develop and improve a driver better than a midfield team.

Surely with all the data at hand they can get the most out of his potential that lesser teams just can't do.

In other words they leave a better driver than when they arrived.

Don't forget Schumacher contractually did not allow the team's other driver to access his telemetry.

[Wass85]

If Bottas is as close as he is to Hamilton, why would he be miles away from Schumacher ? One of Bottas' strengths is his qualy pace. But rather than saying Bottas is fast in qualy, you want it to be Hamilton is slow in qualy

Again you are getting carried away.

Of course Bottas is fast but we are talking best of the best here and if you want to believe the Finn would be within a tenth of a prime Schumacher then I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion.

You didn't answer my points about Rosberg/Schumacher?

I would answer that quite simply with, after a few years in the team, Michael had now had enough input in to the cars direction and the car was now more to his liking. But I dont see how he was only closer in 2012, I though 2011 was a much better year for Michael. He was very close to Nico. So after the 1 year of being able to add his input to help the direction of the car go his way , he started to produce better results.

And why couldnt Bottas get within a tenth of Michael in qualy ? He does it often with Lewis. Or do you think Michael was really half a second faster than Lewis in qualy ?

Not half a second but my guess is around 1-3 tenths faster on average over the season.

I'm speaking of averages over the full season.

[Wass85]

Another point that goes in Hamilton's favour is telemetry, yes they had it in Schumacher's day but it was nowhere near as detailed as today.

Don't forget that Bottas likely has access to all of Hamilton's data and vice versa.

When a driver enters a top team with a top car you would have to think that this team can develop and improve a driver better than a midfield team.

Surely with all the data at hand they can get the most out of his potential that lesser teams just can't do.

In other words they leave a better driver than when they arrived.

Don't forget Schumacher contractually did not allow the team's other driver to access his telemetry.

He probably did but I can recall Hamilton getting very upset in 2014 after Malaysia when the team shared his data with Rosberg.

[Just_a_fan]

Some Hamilton fans are so much engrossed in proving that his success is greater than of Schumacher's, they are failing to understand what is being argued here. For them, it's just about Schumacher had a No. 2 designate and Hamilton did not and hence, his success is greater. So deeply buried in that one dimensional thinking, every argument with a slightly different flair, is drawn into that muddy pit and try to beat that argument there. It's so hard for them to not be objective on any other aspect of comparison. For that, they try to play up his team mates, despite them being so poor in skill and in performance.

And some people seem intent on showing that Hamilton is no good etc.

To borrow from a religious text: "remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye"

None here is truly objective because each of us comes with personal prejudices. That's humans for you.

[NathanOlder]

Again you are getting carried away.

Of course Bottas is fast but we are talking best of the best here and if you want to believe the Finn would be within a tenth of a prime Schumacher then I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion.

You didn't answer my points about Rosberg/Schumacher?

I would answer that quite simply with, after a few years in the team, Michael had now had enough input in to the cars direction and the car was now more to his liking. But I dont see how he was only closer in 2012, I though 2011 was a much better year for Michael. He was very close to Nico. So after the 1 year of being able to add his input to help the direction of the car go his way , he started to produce better results.

And why couldnt Bottas get within a tenth of Michael in qualy ? He does it often with Lewis. Or do you think Michael was really half a second faster than Lewis in qualy ?

Not half a second but my guess is around 1-3 tenths faster on average over the season.

I'm speaking of averages over the full season.

Unfortunately on averages Nico was faster than Michael. And Lewis was faster than Nico.

[Wass85]

I would answer that quite simply with, after a few years in the team, Michael had now had enough input in to the cars direction and the car was now more to his liking. But I dont see how he was only closer in 2012, I though 2011 was a much better year for Michael. He was very close to Nico. So after the 1 year of being able to add his input to help the direction of the car go his way , he started to produce better results.

And why couldnt Bottas get within a tenth of Michael in qualy ? He does it often with Lewis. Or do you think Michael was really half a second faster than Lewis in qualy ?

Not half a second but my guess is around 1-3 tenths faster on average over the season.

I'm speaking of averages over the full season.

Unfortunately on averages Nico was faster than Michael. And Lewis was faster than Nico.

If you want to believe that was a prime Schumacher than fair enough.

[mkay]

Because, F1's data analytics say so! While it is still not the gospel of truth, but I would any day trust that instead of any armchair expert here. Every athlete loses speed through age and that is where Hamilton is now. He is 35 and an experienced racer, but couldn't be his own former younger self when it comes to speed. Bottas is at the peak of what he can do and seems closer. Very natural, just that some exceptional athletes would still be better against the available competitors, despite not being at their best. Hence, Bottas could definitely have been far behind Hamilton of the yore and even further of Schumacher's.

What does that say about the quality of the current F1 driver landscape when an "old fart" like Hamilton gets pole by nearly 1.5s in a wet Styrian qualifying session?!

An absolutely beast of a machine that W11 is! Just so that if you have forgotten, W05 was 2 second a lap quicker in Bahrain when the dog fight started between two Mercedes cars. In a recent Bahrain 2014 debrief, James Vowels mentioned they were nowhere close to the maximum of that car! What does that say about W05?

If the W11 was so dominant in the wet, then why did Bottas only qualify 4th, 1.6s behind Hamilton?

Even the much-derided Albon qualified within 0.6s of Verstappen.

Also, what has the W05 got to do with the W11?

[Wass85]

What does that say about the quality of the current F1 driver landscape when an "old fart" like Hamilton gets pole by nearly 1.5s in a wet Styrian qualifying session?!

An absolutely beast of a machine that W11 is! Just so that if you have forgotten, W05 was 2 second a lap quicker in Bahrain when the dog fight started between two Mercedes cars. In a recent Bahrain 2014 debrief, James Vowels mentioned they were nowhere close to the maximum of that car! What does that say about W05?

If the W11 was so dominant in the wet, then why did Bottas only qualify 4th, 1.6s behind Hamilton?

Even the much-derided Albon qualified within 0.6s of Verstappen.

Also, what has the W05 got to do with the W11?

Hamilton has been brilliant in the wet for the last few seasons but speaking of Austria, didn't Bottas complain that the team got the ride height wrong for his car?

Also Verstappen was on the verge of pulling a similar gap to Albon before he came up to Vettel and made the error.