FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

[etusch]

Translated with GT.

From Monza "Magic Button" only in the race

The long-awaited technical directive that will prohibit the use of the most aggressive mappings during the qualifying session on Saturday afternoon has unofficially arrived in these hours, but not in the race. Technical directive preceded by a few weeks of intense talks between FIA and engineers and a last meeting last Monday, where the federation anticipated the technical innovations by teleconference to the teams and where the timing of implementation was discussed again: there were indeed strong pressures by Mercedes to postpone everything 2021. It will enter into force from the GP of Italy , and not from that of Belgium that will take place in Spa in just over a week, to allow the engineers to complete the bench tests in preparation for the important change.

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2020 ... -gara.html

They seems don't like to be faster in race after Q mode ban.

[zibby43]

Translated with GT.

From Monza "Magic Button" only in the race

The long-awaited technical directive that will prohibit the use of the most aggressive mappings during the qualifying session on Saturday afternoon has unofficially arrived in these hours, but not in the race. Technical directive preceded by a few weeks of intense talks between FIA and engineers and a last meeting last Monday, where the federation anticipated the technical innovations by teleconference to the teams and where the timing of implementation was discussed again: there were indeed strong pressures by Mercedes to postpone everything 2021. It will enter into force from the GP of Italy , and not from that of Belgium that will take place in Spa in just over a week, to allow the engineers to complete the bench tests in preparation for the important change.

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2020 ... -gara.html

They seems don't like to be faster in race after Q mode ban.

PG Tech is about as reliable as Franco Nugnes.

If I had to count all the times he's spread falsehoods, I'd still be counting.

Not only does he spread rumors as facts, but he steals information from other (actually) reliable sources in the paddock, like Mark Hughes, and then passes the information off on his own without crediting the original source.

Pretty telling that no other reputable publication (RaceFans, AMuS, The Race, Racer, etc.) has picked up on or reported this.

[djones]

Redbull pretending Mercedes has a magic bullet, then actually not wanting the rule change is pretty funny. My money is literally going to be on them being behind Racing Point at Spa.

That aside.....

I know there are MANY parameters and things that change. But how much in terms of performance vs longevity can be controlled through throttle?

For example, could you run a high engine mode, but limit the throttle to 98% or something? Then when you need the power simply allow 100%.

[henry]

For example, could you run a high engine mode, but limit the throttle to 98% or something? Then when you need the power simply allow 100%.

I’m afraid that’s not how these PUs work.

If the driver asks for 98% they get 98% of the maximum ICE only output. When they get to 100% demand the strategy software chooses a maximum output involving ICE and ERS components.*

The new rules will mean that 100% ICE will be fixed at a single value for qualification and the race. Currently they can adjust what power level 100% ICE represents, For example v high in quali, high at the start and Defending or attacking, low when engine saving

* software chooses between
ICE only
ICE plus MGU-K driven by the MGU-H (Self sustain)
ICE plus MGU-K driven by the MGU-H and the ES (self sustain plus)
ICE with wastegates open, compressor driven by the ES, MGU-K driven by the ES.

There are potentially other modes but these 4 illustrate the point.

[NL_Fer]

Redbull pretending Mercedes has a magic bullet, then actually not wanting the rule change is pretty funny. My money is literally going to be on them being behind Racing Point at Spa.

With several modes available now, it is not easy to combine them in on ultimate mode. To much power and the engine blows early, to little and you lose the race.

That aside.....

I know there are MANY parameters and things that change. But how much in terms of performance vs longevity can be controlled through throttle?

For example, could you run a high engine mode, but limit the throttle to 98% or something? Then when you need the power simply allow 100%.

It is not easy for a driver to koop the throttle at 98%, during 3G corners and going over bumps.

[dans79]

Redbull pretending Mercedes has a magic bullet, then actually not wanting the rule change is pretty funny. My money is literally going to be on them being behind Racing Point at Spa.

With several modes available now, it is not easy to combine them in on ultimate mode. To much power and the engine blows early, to little and you lose the race.

That aside.....

I know there are MANY parameters and things that change. But how much in terms of performance vs longevity can be controlled through throttle?

For example, could you run a high engine mode, but limit the throttle to 98% or something? Then when you need the power simply allow 100%.

It is not easy for a driver to koop the throttle at 98%, during 3G corners and going over bumps.

No to mention The modes in question aren't the type of thing that only have benefit at maximum rpm or maximum throttle. They are a performance boost across the entire rpm and throttle range, so they aren't something a driver can simulate with their foot.

[gruntguru]

Redbull pretending Mercedes has a magic bullet, then actually not wanting the rule change is pretty funny. My money is literally going to be on them being behind Racing Point at Spa.

With several modes available now, it is not easy to combine them in on ultimate mode. To much power and the engine blows early, to little and you lose the race.

That aside.....

I know there are MANY parameters and things that change. But how much in terms of performance vs longevity can be controlled through throttle?

For example, could you run a high engine mode, but limit the throttle to 98% or something? Then when you need the power simply allow 100%.

It is not easy for a driver to koop the throttle at 98%, during 3G corners and going over bumps.

Similarly it is not easy for them to keep the throttle at 60% during a 3G corner over bumps - but they do it.

[henry]

Redbull pretending Mercedes has a magic bullet, then actually not wanting the rule change is pretty funny. My money is literally going to be on them being behind Racing Point at Spa.

With several modes available now, it is not easy to combine them in on ultimate mode. To much power and the engine blows early, to little and you lose the race.

That aside.....

I know there are MANY parameters and things that change. But how much in terms of performance vs longevity can be controlled through throttle?

For example, could you run a high engine mode, but limit the throttle to 98% or something? Then when you need the power simply allow 100%.

It is not easy for a driver to koop the throttle at 98%, during 3G corners and going over bumps.

Similarly it is not easy for them to keep the throttle at 60% during a 3G corner over bumps - but they do it.

I doubt they maintain 60% for more than fractions of seconds. Most part throttle demand I observe is very transient.

Anyway, I think 98% demand is probably around 75% of max PU output, so it wouldn’t help if they could do it.

[Big Tea]

With several modes available now, it is not easy to combine them in on ultimate mode. To much power and the engine blows early, to little and you lose the race.
It is not easy for a driver to koop the throttle at 98%, during 3G corners and going over bumps.

Similarly it is not easy for them to keep the throttle at 60% during a 3G corner over bumps - but they do it.

I doubt they maintain 60% for more than fractions of seconds. Most part throttle demand I observe is very transient.

Anyway, I think 98% demand is probably around 75% of max PU output, so it wouldn’t help if they could do it.

Could these changes be triggered at a set rev point, or graduated from one as VVT is?
Normal race change up at red light, 'special need' wait for the flashing purple.

[henry]

Similarly it is not easy for them to keep the throttle at 60% during a 3G corner over bumps - but they do it.

I doubt they maintain 60% for more than fractions of seconds. Most part throttle demand I observe is very transient.

Anyway, I think 98% demand is probably around 75% of max PU output, so it wouldn’t help if they could do it.

Could these changes be triggered at a set rev point, or graduated from one as VVT is?
Normal race change up at red light, 'special need' wait for the flashing purple.

No reason why not, you’d need a trigger for switching them off as well. But it would be very blatant cheating.

[Big Tea]

I doubt they maintain 60% for more than fractions of seconds. Most part throttle demand I observe is very transient.

Anyway, I think 98% demand is probably around 75% of max PU output, so it wouldn’t help if they could do it.

Could these changes be triggered at a set rev point, or graduated from one as VVT is?
Normal race change up at red light, 'special need' wait for the flashing purple.

No reason why not, you’d need a trigger for switching them off as well. But it would be very blatant cheating.

Would it be cheating? which I am not advocating in the least.

If the special modes that are banned are those selected by the driver, this would not fall foul of it
as it is something that happens every time the engine hits (say) 12000 RPM, and returns to a previous position when below that, as with VVT or several other settings such as spark advance etc.

I suppose it would depend on how the reg was written, but I (right or wrong) assumed it was all about a 'special' setting being only available for qualli, not an automatic event at above a programmed engine speed but not below.

[henry]

Could these changes be triggered at a set rev point, or graduated from one as VVT is?
Normal race change up at red light, 'special need' wait for the flashing purple.

No reason why not, you’d need a trigger for switching them off as well. But it would be very blatant cheating.

Would it be cheating? which I am not advocating in the least.

If the special modes that are banned are those selected by the driver, this would not fall foul of it
as it is something that happens every time the engine hits (say) 12000 RPM, and returns to a previous position when below that, as with VVT or several other settings such as spark advance etc.

I suppose it would depend on how the reg was written, but I (right or wrong) assumed it was all about a 'special' setting being only available for qualli, not an automatic event at above a programmed engine speed but not below.

I don’t think you’re right. There will be no ‘special’ setting for quali, or anything else other than a small list of low speed conditions. The intention is that there is just one “mode”. Whatever settings you use for fuel injection, ignition, boost and a bunch of more esoteric parameters, have to be the same From the beginning of quali to the end of the race. So you can’t “switch” anything.

You could have a more radical setting for higher engine revs, but by then power is falling anyway and you would only use it for a small proportion of the lap. Also the engine isn’t designed to run at higher revs. Perhaps they will try this, hanging on to lower gears for longer in quali rather than the race.

I’ve never been sure about what the lights on the wheel mean. Are they a rev counter? Or a count down to change? If the latter who decides that?

[Big Tea]

No reason why not, you’d need a trigger for switching them off as well. But it would be very blatant cheating.

Would it be cheating? which I am not advocating in the least.

If the special modes that are banned are those selected by the driver, this would not fall foul of it
as it is something that happens every time the engine hits (say) 12000 RPM, and returns to a previous position when below that, as with VVT or several other settings such as spark advance etc.

I suppose it would depend on how the reg was written, but I (right or wrong) assumed it was all about a 'special' setting being only available for qualli, not an automatic event at above a programmed engine speed but not below.

I don’t think you’re right. There will be no ‘special’ setting for quali, or anything else other than a small list of low speed conditions. The intention is that there is just one “mode”. Whatever settings you use for fuel injection, ignition, boost and a bunch of more esoteric parameters, have to be the same From the beginning of quali to the end of the race. So you can’t “switch” anything.

You could have a more radical setting for higher engine revs, but by then power is falling anyway and you would only use it for a small proportion of the lap. Also the engine isn’t designed to run at higher revs. Perhaps they will try this, hanging on to lower gears for longer in quali rather than the race.

I’ve never been sure about what the lights on the wheel mean. Are they a rev counter? Or a count down to change? If the latter who decides that?

I think the lights are a one second count then an audio beep for change, and for up only. It seems they are on their own for downshift. Also I think the change at too high revs is blocked out to prevent engine damage, so it is also almost auto (if it will not engage until the revs drop).

I gleen this from an interview with a driver saying listen for the beep, but am not sure of any of it.

[henry]

I’ve never been sure about what the lights on the wheel mean. Are they a rev counter? Or a count down to change? If the latter who decides that?

I think the lights are a one second count then an audio beep for change, and for up only. It seems they are on their own for downshift. Also I think the change at too high revs is blocked out to prevent engine damage, so it is also almost auto (if it will not engage until the revs drop).

I gleen this from an interview with a driver saying listen for the beep, but am not sure of any of it.

The audio beep thing sounds right, they have one for lift and coast, or at least I think that’s the case.

Audio is probably a good idea. The brain processes sound more quickly than vision. In fact in lower gears, when the time between shifts is very short, I would guess the brain is interpolating to process the final light before its lit. Or maybe the software that drives the lights helps by lighting them early.

[zibby43]

Someone downvoted my earlier post calling out PG Tech for spreading rumors as facts and said "looks like you were wrong." I don't really care about that stuff, but, what does bother me is, of course, they didn't actually respond to the post and explain why (probably because they couldn't). And that's disappointing, because it's a sign that the fan warring in here is starting to get ridiculous.

Anyway, I'll take this opportunity to post a source today that allegedly rubbishes the claim of Mercedes alone putting pressure on the FIA for a postponement until '21 (as the PG Tech rumor insinuates, which I cannot find corroboration for anywhere). It's from GP Today.

"According to the Italian La Gazzetta dello Sport, Mercedes and Honda have pushed for the ban on Party Mode to be postponed to Monza. The ban, which limits cars to the same engine setting for both qualifying and racing, was expected to take effect for this weekend's race at Spa. According to the Italian newspaper, it was not only Mercedes but also Honda that asked to postpone the ban until a better definition was adopted: "The requests from Mercedes and Honda were decisive." According to the report, Mercedes and Honda engineers have successfully argued that they "needed more time on the dyno to comply with the new regulations." The German Mercedes team's power unit is said to deliver 1,027 horsepower in qualifying, while Honda delivers just under 1,000 horsepower to Verstappen and Albon in Party Mode."

No mention whatsoever of Mercedes solely pushing for a delay until '21. No mention whatsoever of only Mercedes pushing for a delay this year.

https://www.gptoday.net/nl/nieuws/f1/25 ... te-stellen