Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

[gruntguru]

The ''Goetze'' made and supplied piston rings (uncoated 2 rings per piston) Illmor used 30 years ago on their in-house machined but contracted-out forged RR58 (2618A) aluminium alloy pistons were off-the shelve items. there was no technical specialities about piston rings used in F1 at that time apart from careful tolerance selection.

Yes. the 22 degrees ''included'' valve angle I quoted was when viewed from front. This valve included angle used in the 3.0-litre era (late nineties) were all around 25 degrees or less, and some were even less 20 degrees.
Compound valve angles to maximise valve sizes. 2 valves on each side (2 intake) or 2 exhaust) splayed rather than parallel to each other. the compound angle maximized valve size to an extent that could see intake valve area reach as much as 39%of bore size.

Will have to check my notes re the ''splayed'' (front to back) compound valve angle and comes back to you.
''cams ran directly in the head'' means cams runs/rotate directly in the head material and no replaceable bearing shell/bearing bushes are used.

At such small included angles, a change in included angle makes a small difference in the maximum valve size. There are additional benefits to "splaying" the valves both longitudinally and lattitudinally (porcupine arrangement):
- directing the valve axis towards the bore axis improves flow. Flow at the short radius dues not have to turn as much to follow the bore.
- Inclining the valves more would further improve flow but combustion chamber shape suffers and compression ratio is physically limited.
- Combustion chamber shape is improved and surface area reduced.

[PlatinumZealot]

Do the paths of intake runners get affected by splaying out the valves? That by doing this each intake path turn slightly inward in the projected direction of the valve opening?
Or are the paths left straight and parallel still, so that the air flow skips mostly over outside edge of the valve head?

[Tommy Cookers]

94 mm BORE, 3.5-LITRE V8 compared to 94 mm BORE, 3.0-LITRE V10.
......
3500cc v8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc v10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347.293 ft/s.

3500cc V8 max piston accel 236883 ft/sec/sec 3000cc V10 max piston accel 347293 ft/sec/sec ?

this (arbitrary?) example reinforces the (mistaken) presumption that piston speed (not piston acceleration) is the design basis
yes if the V8 has metal valve springs artificially limiting the rpm this relative outcome is plausible
afaik of course

[saviour stivala]

Development of the Formula one V10 engine estimated power outputs from 1993. (estimated by general consensus from the paddock at the respective times. As manufacturers didn’t give any official figures).
In 1993 3.5-litre formula V8, V10 as well as V12 engines were used.
1993 formula one 3.5-litre engines power outputs.
Renault V10 790 BHP. FERRARI V12 740 BHP. Lamborghini V12 740 BHP. Ilmor V10 735 BHP. Cosworth V8 730 BHP. Cosworth V8 customer engine 715 BHP. Mugen V10 710 BHP. Yamaha V10 710 BHP. Hart V10 690 BHP.
1994 Formula one 3.5-litre engines power outputs.
FERRARI V12 815 BHP. Renault V10 770 BHP. Mugen V10 760 BHP. Yamaha V10 745 BHP. Ilmor V10 740 BHP. Cosworth V8 730 BHP. Peugeot V10 720 BHP. Hart V10 710 BHP. Cosworth V8 customer engine 680 BHP.
2002 Formula one 3.0-litre V10 engines power outputs.
BMW V10 880 BHP. Toyota V10 850 BHP. FERRARI V10 850 BHP. Cosworth V10 845 BHP. Ferrari V10 customer engine 830 BHP. Renault V10 820 BHP. Cosworth V10 customer engine 820 BHP. Ilmor V10 810 BHP. Honda V10 810 BHP. Asiatech V10 780 BHP.
2003 Formula one 3.0-litre V10 engines power outputs.
BMW V10 910 BHP. Honda V10 900 BHP. Toyota V10 890 BHP. FERRARI V10 885 BHP. Ilmor V10 875 BHP. Coaworth V10 870 BHP. FERRARI V10 customer engine 855 BHP. Renault V10 850 BHP. Cosworth V10 customer engine 845 BHP. Cosworth V10 customer engine 830 BHP.
2004 Formula one 3.0-litre V10 engines power outputs.
Honda V10 930 BHP. BMW V10 915 BHP. Toyota V10 915 BHP. FERRARI V10 915 BHP. Ilmor V10 905 BHP. Renault V10 880 BHP. Cosworth V10 880 BHP. Cosworth V10 customer engine 840 BHP.

[saviour stivala]

94 mm BORE, 3.5-LITRE V8 compared to 94 mm BORE, 3.0-LITRE V10.
......
3500cc v8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc v10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347.293 ft/s.

3500cc V8 max piston accel 236883 ft/sec/sec 3000cc V10 max piston accel 347293 ft/sec/sec ?

this (arbitrary?) example reinforces the (mistaken) presumption that piston speed (not piston acceleration) is the design basis
yes if the V8 has metal valve springs artificially limiting the rpm this relative outcome is plausible
afaik of course

3500cc V8 mean piston speed (m/s) 27.2 m/s. 3000cc V10 mean piston speed (m/s) 27.3 m/s.
3500cc V8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc V10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347. 293 ft/s.

[63l8qrrfy6]

94 mm BORE, 3.5-LITRE V8 compared to 94 mm BORE, 3.0-LITRE V10.
......
3500cc v8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc v10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347.293 ft/s.

3500cc V8 max piston accel 236883 ft/sec/sec 3000cc V10 max piston accel 347293 ft/sec/sec ?

this (arbitrary?) example reinforces the (mistaken) presumption that piston speed (not piston acceleration) is the design basis
yes if the V8 has metal valve springs artificially limiting the rpm this relative outcome is plausible
afaik of course

Absolutely, which is why I was stressing the point that even though a NASCAR has a mean piston speed comparable to that of an F1 engine, the inertial piston loading is nowhere near as high.

I wonder what sort of cylinder pressures the Nascar engines see. N/A F1 were as high as 120 bar.

[Tommy Cookers]

3500cc V8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc V10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347. 293 ft/s.

236.833 ft/sec/sec is about 8g .... 347.293 ft/sec/sec is about 11g

[63l8qrrfy6]

Some countries use the dot as a delimiter rather than a decimal separator

[Hoffman900]

94 mm BORE, 3.5-LITRE V8 compared to 94 mm BORE, 3.0-LITRE V10.
......
3500cc v8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc v10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347.293 ft/s.

3500cc V8 max piston accel 236883 ft/sec/sec 3000cc V10 max piston accel 347293 ft/sec/sec ?

this (arbitrary?) example reinforces the (mistaken) presumption that piston speed (not piston acceleration) is the design basis
yes if the V8 has metal valve springs artificially limiting the rpm this relative outcome is plausible
afaik of course

Absolutely, which is why I was stressing the point that even though a NASCAR has a mean piston speed comparable to that of an F1 engine, the inertial piston loading is nowhere near as high.

I wonder what sort of cylinder pressures the Nascar engines see. N/A F1 were as high as 120 bar.

Loading I think needs mass for context.

This is 7 years old, but it gets into the meat and potatoes of what is happening with those engines. They are making less now due to the tapered spacer.


The PV diagrams come later on, as well as burn phasing sensitivity analysis, etc.

[Tommy Cookers]

94 mm BORE, 3.5-LITRE V8 compared to 94 mm BORE, 3.0-LITRE V10.
3500cc v8 bore 94mm. 3000cc v10 bore 94mm.
3500cc v8 stroke 63.0mm. 3000cc v10 stroke 43.2mm.
....
3500cc v8 mean piston speed (m/s) 27.2 m/s. 3000cc v10 mean piton speed (m/s) 27.3 m/s.
3500cc v8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc v10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347.293 ft/s.

so we are to know that ....
27.3 means twenty seven point 3 but ...
347.293 means three hundred and forty seven thousand two hundred and ninety three ?

[63l8qrrfy6]

3500cc V8 max piston accel 236883 ft/sec/sec 3000cc V10 max piston accel 347293 ft/sec/sec ?

this (arbitrary?) example reinforces the (mistaken) presumption that piston speed (not piston acceleration) is the design basis
yes if the V8 has metal valve springs artificially limiting the rpm this relative outcome is plausible
afaik of course

Absolutely, which is why I was stressing the point that even though a NASCAR has a mean piston speed comparable to that of an F1 engine, the inertial piston loading is nowhere near as high.

I wonder what sort of cylinder pressures the Nascar engines see. N/A F1 were as high as 120 bar.

Loading I think needs mass for context.

This is 7 years old, but it gets into the meat and potatoes of what is happening with those engines. They are making less now due to the tapered spacer.


The PV diagrams come later on, as well as burn phasing sensitivity analysis, etc.

The beauty of using acceleration is that it represents a mass normalized loading, useful for comparing designs of different sizes and mass!

If you have a very heavy piston with low acceleration the actual load may be higher than a small piston with high acceleration, however the heavier piston will also have much larger cross sections so the actual stresses would be lower.

At 38:00 the slides show a peak cylinder pressure of 80 bar, I wonder if that is representative.

[saviour stivala]

3000cc V10 max piston speed 347.293 ft/s. Three hundred and forty seven point two nine three feet per second.

[Hoffman900]

I also wonder that in regards to the 80 bar as I noticed that as well and have been doing some googling over the last ten minutes. I have no doubt they are holding some things tight to their chest.

http://www.engineprofessional.com/EPQ1- ... 8f93e3.pdf

Shows the design over view of the Ford RY45 engine. This is based on the NASCAR Ford FR09 engine, but the block accommodates larger bores / strokes to be used in dirt circle track racing. Their first iteration averaged 122 bar over all 8 cylinders, with a peak of 135 bar. They then reduced it to 105 bar to meet their design criteria for parts longevity. Obviously these engines aren't compression limited like NASCAR engines are. The World of Outlaw Modifieds race every other night all summer long, so they will take some reliability. The RY45 is used in this class


Off topic, but I always thought how the BRM V16 sounded similar to a NASCAR V8:

[Tommy Cookers]

3000cc V10 max piston speed 347.293 ft/s. Three hundred and forty seven point two nine three feet per second.

but you wrote max piston acceleration is three hundred and forty seven point two nine three

that's why I questioned it (as not a credible value so maybe you meant three hundred and forty seven thousand etc)

[gruntguru]

3000cc V10 max piston speed acceleration 347.293 ft/s/s. Three hundred and forty seven point two nine three feet per second per second.

Fixed.