[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[diffuser]

No magic involved. Maybe a magician or two. There is no incorrect extrapolation. You incorrectly assume that Mercedes can go faster.

Hamilton was 1.2 seconds slower on his last lap than his previous string of laps. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

At the previous race, Hamilton was 1.8 seconds slower on his final lap. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

Why does your calculation deliberately exclude the time the Red Bull gained in the pitstops. You are measuring Verstappen's pace, not pitstop pace, so why include these extra seconds under the 'Verstappen's pace' heading.

That isn't even logically consistent with anything we've seen.

Radio traffic for multiple teams show that, if they have a huge cushion at the front, then they aren't running their most powerful engine modes. Similarly, you can track tyre / fuel drop off over the final stint and see if they were going all out. If they are using up every millimetre of tyre and ounce of fuel, why are they often able to have a go at fastest lap in the closing stages of the race? Surely they are already going the fastest they could go and, even if they could extract moree from the car, they are damaging their pace for the remainder of the race by taking so much out for use in just a single lap?

The idea that drivers are pushing all the time, even if they are alone in the distance out front is absolutely inconsistent with all the commentary from teams, drivers and analysts that emphasise preservation over unnecessary performance.

It's a team sport. Please drivers will drive to the extent of their abilities all race. You cannot afford mistakes. Are you new to f1?

You have a limited quantity of fuel, you cannot use the most aggressive engine modes for even 1/4th of the race. Energy must be allocated efficiently. If a team gains in the pit stops that counts. Everything counts towards total race time.

I think some of these things will be clearer with the new engine mode freeze. You couldn't tell before if Hamilton was driving slower unless he was doing a lift and coast into a brake zone. He was still at full throttle in the acceration zones. I'm hoping now with the freeze. You'll see they will not be spending as much time on full throttle, or not using full throttle at all, when they are coasting.


From what I'm reading, loverboy is right in that all teams don't carry enough fuel to get to the end of the race at full power setting. They opt to probably carry 75%, obviously this will vary, of the fuel they need. The car will be much faster off the line and more nimble in those first couple of crutial laps because of it. That then forces them into a fuel saving mode a different points of the race which usually coincides with the number of laps the tires can handle. You'll align your fuel with the pace you tires can handle. Typically the more stops you're planning, you might fuel more from the start with the idea you'll be able to push the tires harder. That all depends on how many laps you can do at what pace.

In closing it's really hard to dial in and figure out what teams are doing during a race unless they are close enough to attack each other outright. If they are in clear air, you can flip a coin and guess.

[ispano6]

And you are incorrectly assuming that Mercedes can’t go faster... While the impression of everyone is that once Mercedes (Hamilton) is at the front, he just manages his pace (therefore not going as fast as he can) just to save engine mileage... While Max seems to be getting everything he can out of the RBR to keep up with him.

I think Verstappen is also cruising when he has the chance. For his win, there's radio conversation with his engineer about whether he would be in Mode 8 until the end or Mode 10. Engineer wanted Mode 8, Verstappen wanted more and got Mode 10. Pretty sure neither of them are 'Push' modes.

In this GP, I suspect Verstappen was managing his pace to see just what Bottas had to offer. When Bottas couldn't close on him, Verstappen's pace stayed consistently in the high 1:21s / low 1:22s suggesting that he wasn't pushing abnormally but was comfortable at that pace to the end. If he was burning engine life / tyre life I would expect to see him ease off to avoid taking any risks, extend the life of his components and leave something in reserve in case of a late Safety Car.

I would agree with that... I was watching the lap times and at least Hamilton was capable of opening up a gap when he wanted.

The reality is that taking the time delta at the end of the race and dividing it by the amount of laps doesn’t give you the gap between teams.

At the end if the gap is 0.3, 0.5 or 1.0 second, it really doesn’t matter... Mercedes has a considerable pace advantage and that’s all we can really tell so far this season (unless there is an abnormal situation as with Silverstone 2)


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The same could be said about Verstappen and Silverstone 2 when he asked his engineers to go ahead and turn down the engine on the last lap. He could have finished with a much larger gap. In the end, it doesn't matter if you win by .00000001 as long as you win. In Spain , Hamilton was in the zone and didn't realize it was the last lap, likely driving at full race pace. So I doubt he had extra pace and could have finished with a bigger gap "if he wanted to". Calling Silverstone 2 abnormal is a "sore loser" comment at best. Silverstone 1 was not abnormal but Mercedes had two abnormal failures. They got SUPER lucky neither car DNFed. What happened to Kvyat could have easily happened to them.

[Big Tea]

Do they not drive to a delta given the by the team strategist? Based I suppose on how quickly they are being caught and distance remaining?
This in the latter stages of course after pit stops and overtaking is already done and all thats left is a safety car event.

[godlameroso]

Hamilton was 1.2 seconds slower on his last lap than his previous string of laps. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

At the previous race, Hamilton was 1.8 seconds slower on his final lap. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

Why does your calculation deliberately exclude the time the Red Bull gained in the pitstops. You are measuring Verstappen's pace, not pitstop pace, so why include these extra seconds under the 'Verstappen's pace' heading.

Radio traffic for multiple teams show that, if they have a huge cushion at the front, then they aren't running their most powerful engine modes. Similarly, you can track tyre / fuel drop off over the final stint and see if they were going all out. If they are using up every millimetre of tyre and ounce of fuel, why are they often able to have a go at fastest lap in the closing stages of the race? Surely they are already going the fastest they could go and, even if they could extract moree from the car, they are damaging their pace for the remainder of the race by taking so much out for use in just a single lap?

The idea that drivers are pushing all the time, even if they are alone in the distance out front is absolutely inconsistent with all the commentary from teams, drivers and analysts that emphasise preservation over unnecessary performance.

It's a team sport. Please drivers will drive to the extent of their abilities all race. You cannot afford mistakes. Are you new to f1?

You have a limited quantity of fuel, you cannot use the most aggressive engine modes for even 1/4th of the race. Energy must be allocated efficiently. If a team gains in the pit stops that counts. Everything counts towards total race time.

I think some of these things will be clearer with the new engine mode freeze. You couldn't tell before if Hamilton was driving slower unless he was doing a lift and coast into a brake zone. He was still at full throttle in the acceration zones. I'm hoping now with the freeze. You'll see they will not be spending as much time on full throttle, or not using full throttle at all, when they are coasting.


From what I'm reading, loverboy is right in that all teams don't carry enough fuel to get to the end of the race at full power setting. They opt to probably carry 75%, obviously this will vary, of the fuel they need. The car will be much faster off the line and more nimble in those first couple of crutial laps because of it. That then forces them into a fuel saving mode a different points of the race which usually coincides with the number of laps the tires can handle. You'll align your fuel with the pace you tires can handle. Typically the more stops you're planning, you might fuel more from the start with the idea you'll be able to push the tires harder. That all depends on how many laps you can do at what pace.

In closing it's really hard to dial in and figure out what teams are doing during a race unless they are close enough to attack each other outright. If they are in clear air, you can flip a coin and guess.

You can fill it to the brim 110kg of fuel. @ 100kg per hour fuel flow rate with 65% full throttle. You'll run out of fuel in an hour and 15 minutes give or take. What are you going to do for the next 25 minutes?

[SmallSoldier]

I think Verstappen is also cruising when he has the chance. For his win, there's radio conversation with his engineer about whether he would be in Mode 8 until the end or Mode 10. Engineer wanted Mode 8, Verstappen wanted more and got Mode 10. Pretty sure neither of them are 'Push' modes.

In this GP, I suspect Verstappen was managing his pace to see just what Bottas had to offer. When Bottas couldn't close on him, Verstappen's pace stayed consistently in the high 1:21s / low 1:22s suggesting that he wasn't pushing abnormally but was comfortable at that pace to the end. If he was burning engine life / tyre life I would expect to see him ease off to avoid taking any risks, extend the life of his components and leave something in reserve in case of a late Safety Car.

I would agree with that... I was watching the lap times and at least Hamilton was capable of opening up a gap when he wanted.

The reality is that taking the time delta at the end of the race and dividing it by the amount of laps doesn’t give you the gap between teams.

At the end if the gap is 0.3, 0.5 or 1.0 second, it really doesn’t matter... Mercedes has a considerable pace advantage and that’s all we can really tell so far this season (unless there is an abnormal situation as with Silverstone 2)


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The same could be said about Verstappen and Silverstone 2 when he asked his engineers to go ahead and turn down the engine on the last lap. He could have finished with a much larger gap. In the end, it doesn't matter if you win by .00000001 as long as you win. In Spain , Hamilton was in the zone and didn't realize it was the last lap, likely driving at full race pace. So I doubt he had extra pace and could have finished with a bigger gap "if he wanted to". Calling Silverstone 2 abnormal is a "sore loser" comment at best. Silverstone 1 was not abnormal but Mercedes had two abnormal failures. They got SUPER lucky neither car DNFed. What happened to Kvyat could have easily happened to them.

Silverstone 2 was abnormal and it’s not a “sore loser comment” since I’m not a Mercedes fan and therefore not invested in whether they win or lose... But, the tire situation that happened in an “abnormally hot” Silverstone race and the impact that it had on the pace of the Mercedes made the race the exception, not the norm... Not taking anything away from Max / RBR to take advantage and win that race.

In regards to the Spanish GP, you are right in regards that it doesn’t matter if you win by 1 tenth or 60 seconds... I doubt that Hamilton was pushing at all at the end of the race, he was in such a leisure drive at the end that he didn’t even realize it was over... Mercedes saving their engines makes absolute sense once they not only have a gap, but no need to push anymore... Trying to imply that they are going at maximum pace all race long in order to justify an smaller gap between them and your team it’s a stretch.


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[ispano6]

So Bottas wasn't going maximum speed in order to catch Verstappen, who was hampered by a bad set up that didn't let them maximize their tyres? Max wasn't pushing the entire time either, his focus was his own race and maintaining the gap which he managed to. Horner and Yamamoto both said Silverstone 2 was won on merit and that they had a quiet confidence on Friday of that weekend that they had a set up they can win with. They had planned to qualify on hards and the only time they were nervous was when Max made it to Q3 on hards in P9. Once they knew they were in, there was a huge sigh of relief and the rest of the weekend went according to plan. That race was won on strategy and merit where Red Bull prepared their car perfectly for the conditions.

[tangodjango]

So Bottas wasn't going maximum speed in order to catch Verstappen, who was hampered by a bad set up that didn't let them maximize their tyres? Max wasn't pushing the entire time either, his focus was his own race and maintaining the gap which he managed to. Horner and Yamamoto both said Silverstone 2 was won on merit and that they had a quiet confidence on Friday of that weekend that they had a set up they can win with. They had planned to qualify on hards and the only time they were nervous was when Max made it to Q3 on hards in P9. Once they knew they were in, there was a huge sigh of relief and the rest of the weekend went according to plan. That race was won on strategy and merit where Red Bull prepared their car perfectly for the conditions.

I think what Horner and Yamamoto meant was on the day they won on merit with better pace. With cooler temperatures and lower pressures i.e. a normal scenario I suspect neither would be making the same claim. If that was the case why are you pointing to Red Bull's lack of pace at Barcelona to a bad setup and not mentioning that bad setup led to the same lack of pace for Mercedes at Silverstone 2.

[diffuser]

It's a team sport. Please drivers will drive to the extent of their abilities all race. You cannot afford mistakes. Are you new to f1?

You have a limited quantity of fuel, you cannot use the most aggressive engine modes for even 1/4th of the race. Energy must be allocated efficiently. If a team gains in the pit stops that counts. Everything counts towards total race time.

I think some of these things will be clearer with the new engine mode freeze. You couldn't tell before if Hamilton was driving slower unless he was doing a lift and coast into a brake zone. He was still at full throttle in the acceration zones. I'm hoping now with the freeze. You'll see they will not be spending as much time on full throttle, or not using full throttle at all, when they are coasting.


From what I'm reading, loverboy is right in that all teams don't carry enough fuel to get to the end of the race at full power setting. They opt to probably carry 75%, obviously this will vary, of the fuel they need. The car will be much faster off the line and more nimble in those first couple of crutial laps because of it. That then forces them into a fuel saving mode a different points of the race which usually coincides with the number of laps the tires can handle. You'll align your fuel with the pace you tires can handle. Typically the more stops you're planning, you might fuel more from the start with the idea you'll be able to push the tires harder. That all depends on how many laps you can do at what pace.

In closing it's really hard to dial in and figure out what teams are doing during a race unless they are close enough to attack each other outright. If they are in clear air, you can flip a coin and guess.

You can fill it to the brim 110kg of fuel. @ 100kg per hour fuel flow rate with 65% full throttle. You'll run out of fuel in an hour and 15 minutes give or take. What are you going to do for the next 25 minutes?

Pray for rain or a safety car!

[ispano6]

So Bottas wasn't going maximum speed in order to catch Verstappen, who was hampered by a bad set up that didn't let them maximize their tyres? Max wasn't pushing the entire time either, his focus was his own race and maintaining the gap which he managed to. Horner and Yamamoto both said Silverstone 2 was won on merit and that they had a quiet confidence on Friday of that weekend that they had a set up they can win with. They had planned to qualify on hards and the only time they were nervous was when Max made it to Q3 on hards in P9. Once they knew they were in, there was a huge sigh of relief and the rest of the weekend went according to plan. That race was won on strategy and merit where Red Bull prepared their car perfectly for the conditions.

I think what Horner and Yamamoto meant was on the day they won on merit with better pace. With cooler temperatures and lower pressures i.e. a normal scenario I suspect neither would be making the same claim. If that was the case why are you pointing to Red Bull's lack of pace at Barcelona to a bad setup and not mentioning that bad setup led to the same lack of pace for Mercedes at Silverstone 2.

Read this article.
"Marko: "Rear suspension was the issue in Barcelona"
https://www.maximumf1.com/formula-1/305 ... -barcelona
Also keep in mind that the PU that was used was the first iteration and not the Silverstone2 winning PU. Marko said it wouldn't have made a difference, probably because it was the suspension and resulting tire issues that prevented them from being able to replicate their practice session runs. Getting the setup wrong is part of the challenge. Mercedes got it wrong too. Red Bull had it right. That is all part of winning on merit.

And for those of you who can understand Japanese or know someone who will accurately translate for you, the best parts of the Aug 21st interview in the video below start around the 20min mark, ends at the 1hr mark. Throughout the interview, Asaki and Yamamoto are coy to answer all of the questions. It's actually quite humorous the way they respond to questions that would give away some of their know-how. Honda identifies two areas where the RB16 package is behind on Mercedes, and that is straight-line speed and thermal efficiency. Asaki doesn't say they have less outright power than Mercedes, and that Mercedes W11s straightline speed is a result of aero/chassis/pu. When asked where Mercedes' power unit has the edge, Asaki's answer is "thermal efficiency". Honda's issue is that they need to balance outright power with damage taken. Asaki eludes to thermal efficiency as being the measure of how much damage they would allow an engine to take per event and to calculate and balance out the damage taken with the expected lifespan of the engine. Asaki is confident that the Honda turbo and MGUK is on par with Mercedes if not better, and that it's a neck and neck fight in that department. Asaki says they will work to improve thermal efficiency to match Mercedes, and while they cannot do any hardware development to increase power for this year, they are already looking into software development to increase the power instead. When asked when they think the next race they can win will be, Yamamoto's answer is "Tracks like Mexico and Brazil would have been advantageous to RB/Honda package, but since they are not on the calendar it's too bad for them." Mugello is a track that isn't normally on the calendar, so in that respect, the driver and team's ability to adapt to the circuit will play a big part. He also says Monza is a low downforce track in which he says "look to an exciting race at Monza". He says SPA is a track that RedBull does well, but Mercedes car is more suited for it. Though he does say if they split the Mercedes early on, they may try and go for the win. If someone really wants the main parts translated, send me a private message and I will disclose more information.


The younger interviewer is a reknown Japanese F1 photographer Mamoru Atsuta.
PS Don't even think the translated version on Youtube is remotely accurate. It is way off.

[Wouter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWhSHleV40A

Thank you @Ispano.

[tangodjango]

So Bottas wasn't going maximum speed in order to catch Verstappen, who was hampered by a bad set up that didn't let them maximize their tyres? Max wasn't pushing the entire time either, his focus was his own race and maintaining the gap which he managed to. Horner and Yamamoto both said Silverstone 2 was won on merit and that they had a quiet confidence on Friday of that weekend that they had a set up they can win with. They had planned to qualify on hards and the only time they were nervous was when Max made it to Q3 on hards in P9. Once they knew they were in, there was a huge sigh of relief and the rest of the weekend went according to plan. That race was won on strategy and merit where Red Bull prepared their car perfectly for the conditions.

I think what Horner and Yamamoto meant was on the day they won on merit with better pace. With cooler temperatures and lower pressures i.e. a normal scenario I suspect neither would be making the same claim. If that was the case why are you pointing to Red Bull's lack of pace at Barcelona to a bad setup and not mentioning that bad setup led to the same lack of pace for Mercedes at Silverstone 2.

Read this article.
"Marko: "Rear suspension was the issue in Barcelona"
https://www.maximumf1.com/formula-1/305 ... -barcelona
Also keep in mind that the PU that was used was the first iteration and not the Silverstone2 winning PU. Marko said it wouldn't have made a difference, probably because it was the suspension and resulting tire issues that prevented them from being able to replicate their practice session runs. Getting the setup wrong is part of the challenge. Mercedes got it wrong too. Red Bull had it right. That is all part of winning on merit.

And for those of you who can understand Japanese or know someone who will accurately translate for you, the best parts of the Aug 21st interview in the video below start around the 20min mark, ends at the 1hr mark. Throughout the interview, Asaki and Yamamoto are coy to answer all of the questions. It's actually quite humorous the way they respond to questions that would give away some of their know-how. Honda identifies two areas where the RB16 package is behind on Mercedes, and that is straight-line speed and thermal efficiency. Asaki doesn't say they have less outright power than Mercedes, and that Mercedes W11s straightline speed is a result of aero/chassis/pu. When asked where Mercedes' power unit has the edge, Asaki's answer is "thermal efficiency". Honda's issue is that they need to balance outright power with damage taken. Asaki eludes to thermal efficiency as being the measure of how much damage they would allow an engine to take per event and to calculate and balance out the damage taken with the expected lifespan of the engine. Asaki is confident that the Honda turbo and MGUK is on par with Mercedes if not better, and that it's a neck and neck fight in that department. Asaki says they will work to improve thermal efficiency to match Mercedes, and while they cannot do any hardware development to increase power for this year, they are already looking into software development to increase the power instead. When asked when they think the next race they can win will be, Yamamoto's answer is "Tracks like Mexico and Brazil would have been advantageous to RB/Honda package, but since they are not on the calendar it's too bad for them." Mugello is a track that isn't normally on the calendar, so in that respect, the driver and team's ability to adapt to the circuit will play a big part. He also says Monza is a low downforce track in which he says "look to an exciting race at Monza". He says SPA is a track that RedBull does well, but Mercedes car is more suited for it. Though he does say if they split the Mercedes early on, they may try and go for the win. If someone really wants the main parts translated, send me a private message and I will disclose more information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWhSHleV40A
The younger interviewer is a reknown Japanese F1 photographer Mamoru Atsuta.
PS Don't even think the translated version on Youtube is remotely accurate. It is way off.

All very well and good but isn't that just reinforcing my base premise? Mercedes got setup wrong and overheated their tires in Silverstone 2 and so didn't have the expected pace while in Barcelona it was Red Bull's turn to get it wrong.
Also how is the PU relevant. Mercedes have been running the same PU since Austria.

[Sieper]

And Red Bull not. How is that irrelevant?

[ispano6]

All very well and good but isn't that just reinforcing my base premise? Mercedes got setup wrong and overheated their tires in Silverstone 2 and so didn't have the expected pace while in Barcelona it was Red Bull's turn to get it wrong.
Also how is the PU relevant. Mercedes have been running the same PU since Austria.

No. It means on any given Sunday, you can screw it up or win the jackpot.
Yamamoto does say Mercedes is the benchmark with regard to the total operation, from strategists, fuel/energy usage, management of tires and that RB-Honda needs to be right at the heels for when they do make a mistake/miscalculation/ or something goes their way that they need to capitalize on it.
How is the PU relevant? It propels the car forward.
But as you mentioned yourself, Mercedes couldn't match RedBull Honda's performance on the same tyres in Silverstone2 and that it was because of the tyres. That is the same as what Max and Marko said during and after the Barcelona race. So I tend to believe what they and Mr. Asaki and Yamamoto say especially when it's coming directly from their mouths on recorded video instead of journalists people here are quick to discredit.

[tangodjango]

All very well and good but isn't that just reinforcing my base premise? Mercedes got setup wrong and overheated their tires in Silverstone 2 and so didn't have the expected pace while in Barcelona it was Red Bull's turn to get it wrong.
Also how is the PU relevant. Mercedes have been running the same PU since Austria.

No. It means on any given Sunday, you can screw it up or win the jackpot.
Yamamoto does say Mercedes is the benchmark with regard to the total operation, from strategists, fuel/energy usage, management of tires and that RB-Honda needs to be right at the heels for when they do make a mistake/miscalculation/ or something goes their way that they need to capitalize on it.
How is the PU relevant? It propels the car forward.
But as you mentioned yourself, Mercedes couldn't match RedBull Honda's performance on the same tyres in Silverstone2 and that it was because of the tyres. That is the same as what Max and Marko said during and after the Barcelona race. So I tend to believe what they and Mr. Asaki and Yamamoto say especially when it's coming directly from their mouths on recorded video instead of journalists people here are quick to discredit.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. My point was that Silverstone 2 was an example where everything went spectacularly wrong for the Merc's because of tire management and wrong setup hence Red Bull had the best race pace and won deservedly on merit. In Barcelona I don't think Red Bull had comparitively anywhere near the same amount of issues and were off the pace, my point being even if RBR did not have any setup issues in Barcelona I doubt they would be a threat to Hamilton while the reverse can't be said for Silverstone 2 given the fact Mercedes were well ahead in the first race.

[ispano6]

All very well and good but isn't that just reinforcing my base premise? Mercedes got setup wrong and overheated their tires in Silverstone 2 and so didn't have the expected pace while in Barcelona it was Red Bull's turn to get it wrong.
Also how is the PU relevant. Mercedes have been running the same PU since Austria.

No. It means on any given Sunday, you can screw it up or win the jackpot.
Yamamoto does say Mercedes is the benchmark with regard to the total operation, from strategists, fuel/energy usage, management of tires and that RB-Honda needs to be right at the heels for when they do make a mistake/miscalculation/ or something goes their way that they need to capitalize on it.
How is the PU relevant? It propels the car forward.
But as you mentioned yourself, Mercedes couldn't match RedBull Honda's performance on the same tyres in Silverstone2 and that it was because of the tyres. That is the same as what Max and Marko said during and after the Barcelona race. So I tend to believe what they and Mr. Asaki and Yamamoto say especially when it's coming directly from their mouths on recorded video instead of journalists people here are quick to discredit.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. My point was that Silverstone 2 was an example where everything went spectacularly wrong for the Merc's because of tire management and wrong setup hence Red Bull had the best race pace and won deservedly on merit. In Barcelona I don't think Red Bull had comparitively anywhere near the same amount of issues and were off the pace, my point being even if RBR did not have any setup issues in Barcelona I doubt they would be a threat to Hamilton while the reverse can't be said for Silverstone 2 given the fact Mercedes were well ahead in the first race.

You are entitled to your own opinion and doubts and it doesn't have to make sense to you. Everything went spectacularly wrong in Silvertone1 for MB but they were LUCKY. Silverstone2 they should have learned their lesson and took learnings from the first race, but RedBull did a BETTER job at applying their learnings AND adjusting for the conditions. Do you know who's fault it is that "everything went spectacularly wrong" for Mercedes? Not Pirellis, as they gave ALL TEAMS THE SAME TIRES AND SAME PRESSURE requirements. Pirelli did not intentionally use soft tyres to HURT Mercedes or slow them down. Mercedes simply just wasn't able to cope with those tyres in those conditions. Simple as that.