Mercedes W11

[zibby43]

One of the great things about the forum is being able to go back and search the car threads.

Horns first showed up on the W10 on Tue Feb 26, 2019, a photo of them Via @AlbertFabrega was posted by @Morteza.
viewtopic.php?p=816567#p816567

they didn't show up on the RB15 untill Thu Jun 06, 2019 as can be seen here.
viewtopic.php?p=838344#p838344

So RBR didn't have horns until over 3 months after Merc!

This is exactly what I was trying to establish with my initial post. That the RB15 didn’t have them at launch, and they developed their own version later.

Thank you for the additional detailed timing information as to when these developments showed up!

[ispano6]

One of the great things about the forum is being able to go back and search the car threads.

Horns first showed up on the W10 on Tue Feb 26, 2019, a photo of them Via @AlbertFabrega was posted by @Morteza.
viewtopic.php?p=816567#p816567

they didn't show up on the RB15 untill Thu Jun 06, 2019 as can be seen here.
viewtopic.php?p=838344#p838344

So RBR didn't have horns until over 3 months after Merc!

This is exactly what I was trying to establish with my initial post. That the RB15 didn’t have them at launch, and they developed their own version later.

Thank you for the additional detailed timing information as to when these developments showed up!

I never claimed that Red Bull invented the horns. I merely pointed out the ones that W11 have now is a copy of the more advanced ones the Red Bull Rb15 had developed. You seem to try to attribute the ingenuity of the RedBull design to Mercedes and say that Mercedes had them last year first. Well let me tell you someone at Mercedes studied the Red Bull design and found merit in it and copied it. Otherwise they would have stuck to their earlier design. And if you think Mercedes invented it last year, guess what they've been around since the Earth Dreams Honda F1 car a decade ago.



So do Mercedes get credit for that too? The Honda design is much closer to Red Bull one than the Mercedes was at inception.
They were called strange and wacky and failed hard etc. They were just far too ahead of its time. The timing was 2008 for your information.

[ispano6]

But yeah, thanks for hitting my initial post with a downvote and saying I was wrong, when Red Bull did not have chassis horns whatsoever all the way up to Spa, whereas the W10 had them for almost the entire season, sans the initial launch spec.

Think it’s really childish how you try to weaponize those downvotes, as opposed to just having a civil discussion, where we could've clarified our positions without being adversarial. I’m done interacting with you on this forum.

I could care less about downvotes. All I care about is the truth and making sure people aren't spreading fake news.
Don't take downvotes so personally, or consider them weaponized, that is childish. Downvotes are allowed on this forum especially with the courtesy of adding a reason. Especially when the reason is justified. You and Dan have a tendency to put words into people's mouth. That is a trait that I despise, I see it happen in the workplace when people say "well he said this" when in fact the individual they are putting down never did. I've never claimed who invented the horns, and as I've proven already, they existed far before the W10. The fact that you didn't remember the RA108 in 2008 automatically makes me think you only tout what you claim to know and then when you're proven wrong you try to use the usual antics and tactics to belittle the person who has proven you wrong.

The RB15 did not have these. However, if we're talking about copying, the RB16 copied the W10 by putting them on the RB16 this year. They also copied the Mercedes "cape" solution.

It's just that you and Dan never like to admit that Red Bull is doing something better than Mercedes and try to spin it to you liking. The contoured horns in the current Formula was in fact developed and researched by Red Bull and Mercedes looked at theirs and then looked at Red Bulls and thought, hrmm, maybe there's is better...

“Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”

― Oscar Wilde

[zibby43]

Besides, these ears appeared on previous generations of cars. Just like countless other bits that all the teams use.

From my first post.

These flow conditioners have been used at various points on various cars over the years.

They're not any sort of game changer. They're just flow conditioners. They’re used to create downwash. They help to propel airflow downward - towards the sidepods. They will create a bit of lift in the process, but it's negated by the overall aero benefit.

[dans79]

And if you think Mercedes invented it last year, guess what they've been around since the Earth Dreams Honda F1 car a decade ago.

So do Mercedes get credit for that too? The Honda design is much closer to Red Bull one than the Mercedes was at inception.
They were called strange and wacky and failed hard etc. They were just far too ahead of its time. The timing was 2008 for your information.

You do realize that Brawn bought Honda in 2009, and Mercedes bought Brawn in 2010 right?

While I'm sure there aren't many people left in the aero department from 2008, I bet you all the designs and testing data is still available for review.

[ispano6]

And if you think Mercedes invented it last year, guess what they've been around since the Earth Dreams Honda F1 car a decade ago.

So do Mercedes get credit for that too? The Honda design is much closer to Red Bull one than the Mercedes was at inception.
They were called strange and wacky and failed hard etc. They were just far too ahead of its time. The timing was 2008 for your information.

You do realize that Brawn bought Honda in 2009, and Mercedes bought Brawn in 2010 right?

While I'm sure there aren't many people left in the aero department from 2008, I bet you all the designs and testing data is still available for review.

Ofcourse I know this... I know Honda F1 better than most people here. I've followed F1 since 1986 and know of detailed stories of Honda F1 staff that only internal people know. Some of the perks of being the son-in-law of one of the people who was in charge of Honda's top secret information. He had to lug Honda F1 engine exhausts in his personal suitcase on emergency order back in the day. To this day we are upset that the President of Honda at the time decided to sell the team and all its facilities for 1 pound.

[Moore77]

One of the great things about the forum is being able to go back and search the car threads.

Horns first showed up on the W10 on Tue Feb 26, 2019, a photo of them Via @AlbertFabrega was posted by @Morteza.
viewtopic.php?p=816567#p816567

they didn't show up on the RB15 untill Thu Jun 06, 2019 as can be seen here.
viewtopic.php?p=838344#p838344

So RBR didn't have horns until over 3 months after Merc!

This is exactly what I was trying to establish with my initial post. That the RB15 didn’t have them at launch, and they developed their own version later.

Thank you for the additional detailed timing information as to when these developments showed up!

I never claimed that Red Bull invented the horns. I merely pointed out the ones that W11 have now is a copy of the more advanced ones the Red Bull Rb15 had developed. You seem to try to attribute the ingenuity of the RedBull design to Mercedes and say that Mercedes had them last year first. Well let me tell you someone at Mercedes studied the Red Bull design and found merit in it and copied it. Otherwise they would have stuck to their earlier design. And if you think Mercedes invented it last year, guess what they've been around since the Earth Dreams Honda F1 car a decade ago.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/55/94/a8 ... 6f7f34.jpg
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/1 ... ff503b.jpg

So do Mercedes get credit for that too? The Honda design is much closer to Red Bull one than the Mercedes was at inception.
They were called strange and wacky and failed hard etc. They were just far too ahead of its time. The timing was 2008 for your information.

It really makes me chuckle looking at this debate! Mercedes' current chief designer John Owen is with this team since 2007, when the team was Honda F1. He was the Principal Aerodynamicist at Honda! These horns came in 2008 Honda car. So one can assume, those horns have moved along with John.

[hollus]

Guys, stop the personal feuds. Talk about the car, but stop talking about each other.

[Mchamilton]

[PlatinumZealot]

I hate to say this.. but Ispano is correct.

The Horns were abviously a Mercedes Invention. RedBull coppied them and made them contoured - made them better. Then Mercedes copied this contoured design and applied it in Spa.

[ispano6]

It really makes me chuckle looking at this debate! Mercedes' current chief designer John Owen is with this team since 2007, when the team was Honda F1. He was the Principal Aerodynamicist at Honda! These horns came in 2008 Honda car. So one can assume, those horns have moved along with John.

Yes, credit should go to where credit is due. Vandoorne said it as well, the reason why the Mercedes team is so strong is because of the continuity of personnel from the last 15 years. That would make it the 2005 Honda team(car side) + Mercedes PU department since Mercedes was still a supplier to McLaren at the time.

Stoffel Vandoorne says the culture inside the Mercedes team is what makes it so dominant.

"The group of people here have been working together for 15 years basically. They know each other so well because there is so little staff turnover.

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/ ... 11680.html

[hollus]

The discussion of where those horns originated, who refined the design, who copied it, etc has been continued in the team thread by at least one user:
viewtopic.php?p=923333#p923333
I post the link here so people can find it.

To me is borderline whether that discussion belongs in the car thread or in the team thread (but that post definitively belonged in the team thread, so thanks for placing it there in the first place), so feel free to continue here or there. In any case, now it is easier to find the fork.

[Morteza]

[Mchamilton]

[El Scorchio]

To try and keep this relevant at least in part to the W11, of course there are things on the car inspired by things the designers have seen on other cars. (RB's modified bull horns) It's the same for all teams. There are things on all the other cars inspired by the Mercedes car as well. It's just how it works. If something a team comes up with improves performance, then other teams will be quick to test it and if it adds performance, implement it. For instance the Ferrari sidepods of a few years ago which almost everyone runs now. The Mercedes cape and slimmer nose which Red Bull runs now. I am sure next year many more teams will have rear wings with only one pylon/support like Mercedes (and anyone else currently?) do.

It's natural for all cars to converge on an optimal solution as best they can. They are all sort of Frankenstein's monsters of the best ideas each team has found within the new regs. I see it more as a group effort between teams to reach perfection with the best balance of ideas rather than anything else.

If DAS was not to be outlawed from next season, you can bet most other teams would be trying to put that on their cars too.