FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

[basti313]

Seems like meaning lost in translation.

What do you mean @Siskue? It was also on English sites.
"From the third engine per season, all engines of one manufacturer need to be run in the same mode"

Ok, i had seen it only on other languages
could you please share it in english

If true, then it is stupid really

Why? The goal is to run one engine for x races. This is one of the core ingredients of the current rules.
So they need to program each engine to a map that allows these x races. This prevents glory runs with putting a new engine in for the last race and killing it. And it avoids the constant development of custom maps...one map that is under development and that's it.

[Wouter]

Seems like meaning lost in translation.

What do you mean @Siskue? It was also on English sites.
"From the third engine per season, all engines of one manufacturer need to be run in the same mode"

Ok, i had seen it only on other languages
could you please share it in english

If true, then it is stupid really

I read a lot of reliable English sites, but I'm not going to revisit them all. Believe me, it wasn't just on AMuS.
It is really true, only from the third engine this season, because not every driver, at the time of the FIA ​​writing, was driving the same engine.

[siskue2005]

What do you mean @Siskue? It was also on English sites.
"From the third engine per season, all engines of one manufacturer need to be run in the same mode"

Ok, i had seen it only on other languages
could you please share it in english

If true, then it is stupid really

Why? The goal is to run one engine for x races. This is one of the core ingredients of the current rules.
So they need to program each engine to a map that allows these x races. This prevents glory runs with putting a new engine in for the last race and killing it. And it avoids the constant development of custom maps...one map that is under development and that's it.

I thought the goal was to close up the competition and provide entertainment and put up a show and also be able to monitor if the engine is legal or not. (according to FIA and liberty). Didn't know it was just to show up for a race with same engine for x races.

[siskue2005]

What do you mean @Siskue? It was also on English sites.
"From the third engine per season, all engines of one manufacturer need to be run in the same mode"

Ok, i had seen it only on other languages
could you please share it in english

If true, then it is stupid really

I read a lot of reliable English sites, but I'm not going to revisit them all. Believe me, it wasn't just on AMuS.
It is really true, only from the third engine this season, because not every driver, at the time of the FIA ​​writing, was driving the same engine.

ok i will try to find it in english version too.
There are alot of confusion with these rules

[basti313]

Ok, i had seen it only on other languages
could you please share it in english

If true, then it is stupid really

Why? The goal is to run one engine for x races. This is one of the core ingredients of the current rules.
So they need to program each engine to a map that allows these x races. This prevents glory runs with putting a new engine in for the last race and killing it. And it avoids the constant development of custom maps...one map that is under development and that's it.

I thought the goal was to close up the competition and provide entertainment and put up a show and also be able to monitor if the engine is legal or not. (according to FIA and liberty). Didn't know it was just to show up for a race with same engine for x races.

I do not really understand what you mean...

The x races concept is one of the core concepts in F1 since maybe 10 years. It started with the ban of Q engines 20 years ago, then they needed to run the engine for more than one race. This is a core concept and the "similar map" thing is a clear consequence of this as it would completely spoil this concept if every team needs a custom map for each race depending on the current engine status and the track. It is enough that they can accommodate to the track.

The point of monitoring legality is in my point of view going into the direction, that they want to police the peak power and to get it to one level with the start of the 2022 rules. Now if Merc runs the whole next two years in Strat 3 in Q, there is no way to police anything. If they just go down to Q2 in 2022 the tricks are back. So they need to limit this switching to be able to see the performance over a prolonged period of time.

[siskue2005]

I do not really understand what you mean...

The x races concept is one of the core concepts in F1 since maybe 10 years. It started with the ban of Q engines 20 years ago, then they needed to run the engine for more than one race.

That was done to reduce engine cost, when teams had qualy alone engines which blew up after 3 hot laps
Same with multiple race lasting engines, all were done to reduce engine costs for teams aswell as customers.

This is a core concept and the "similar map" thing is a clear consequence of this as it would completely spoil this concept if every team needs a custom map for each race depending on the current engine status and the track. It is enough that they can accommodate to the track.

Do you really think they dont have like more 1000 maps ready to go already after 8 years of hybrid engine?
And making maps on a software is not really that expensive and can easily done from a single laptop.
I dont see any issue with allowing different maps.

And we all know why this single map rule was brought (just to reduce certain team's advantage: according to experts aswell)

The point of monitoring legality is in my point of view going into the direction, that they want to police the peak power and to get it to one level with the start of the 2022 rules.

Please explain how are they going to monitor pear power by just asking everyone to run the same mode in qualy and race??

Now if Merc runs the whole next two years in Strat 3 in Q, there is no way to police anything. If they just go down to Q2 in 2022 the tricks are back. So they need to limit this switching to be able to see the performance over a prolonged period of time.

didnt understand a word, please explain

[basti313]

I do not really understand what you mean...

The x races concept is one of the core concepts in F1 since maybe 10 years. It started with the ban of Q engines 20 years ago, then they needed to run the engine for more than one race.

That was done to reduce engine cost, when teams had qualy alone engines which blew up after 3 hot laps
Same with multiple race lasting engines, all were done to reduce engine costs for teams aswell as customers.

This is a core concept and the "similar map" thing is a clear consequence of this as it would completely spoil this concept if every team needs a custom map for each race depending on the current engine status and the track. It is enough that they can accommodate to the track.

Do you really think they dont have like more 1000 maps ready to go already after 8 years of hybrid engine?
And making maps on a software is not really that expensive and can easily done from a single laptop.
I dont see any issue with allowing different maps.

And we all know why this single map rule was brought (just to reduce certain team's advantage: according to experts aswell)

Yes, it is about leveling. But you hugely underestimate the map thing, this is nothing one programs on the desk:
Merc has the knowledge advantage. Maybe there they can pull a map out of their fingers, but even then it is not optimized. Optimizing these maps means running engines on the dyno for weeks. If they can and need to customize the maps for wear you can bet that 2h after the race in Monza is finished, engines with the same wear level come out of their dyno runs in Brixworth.

The point of monitoring legality is in my point of view going into the direction, that they want to police the peak power and to get it to one level with the start of the 2022 rules.

Please explain how are they going to monitor pear power by just asking everyone to run the same mode in qualy and race??

Now if Merc runs the whole next two years in Strat 3 in Q, there is no way to police anything. If they just go down to Q2 in 2022 the tricks are back. So they need to limit this switching to be able to see the performance over a prolonged period of time.

didnt understand a word

They need time for monitoring. They could not even monitor the Ferrari tricks present on some straights. Now if you can switch the trick on and off as you want, the FIA has no way of finding them.

[siskue2005]

Yes, it is about leveling. But you hugely underestimate the map thing, this is nothing one programs on the desk:
Merc has the knowledge advantage. Maybe there they can pull a map out of their fingers, but even then it is not optimized. Optimizing these maps means running engines on the dyno for weeks.

Please fix on one thing why this single map is done?
Is this to reduce Mercedes or just to run x number of races per engine??

There are only 4 engine manufacturers in F1, if they make an engine as complex as these, then they surely can make a map for it, please do underestimate an engine manufacturers ability.

And even with same mod for qualy and race, they (as in all 4 engine manf) still can make mods specific for the upcoming track. It is not like same engine mode for rest of the season.

If they can and need to customize the maps for wear you can bet that 2h after the race in Monza is finished, engines with the same wear level come out of their dyno runs in Brixworth.

So ? All four engine manufacturers can do it. What is the point? what does that make anything different...i am confused

They need time for monitoring. They could not even monitor the Ferrari tricks present on some straights. Now if you can switch the trick on and off as you want, the FIA has no way of finding them.

So the map ban from quly to race will achieve that??
I thought according to you the goal was to run x number of races in one engine


I still stand by my point, if every engine with the same make has to run the same mode in a given race, then that is stupid really. Beats the whole point of closing up the competition and will not allow any lower teams to pull a win or podium (by running higher modes). So practically it is killing the races then..

[basti313]

Yes, it is about leveling. But you hugely underestimate the map thing, this is nothing one programs on the desk:
Merc has the knowledge advantage. Maybe there they can pull a map out of their fingers, but even then it is not optimized. Optimizing these maps means running engines on the dyno for weeks.

Please fix on one thing why this single map is done?
Is this to reduce Mercedes or just to run x number of races per engine??

There are only 4 engine manufacturers in F1, if they make an engine as complex as these, then they surely can make a map for it, please do underestimate an engine manufacturers ability.

And even with same mod for qualy and race, they (as in all 4 engine manf) still can make mods specific for the upcoming track. It is not like same engine mode for rest of the season.

If they can and need to customize the maps for wear you can bet that 2h after the race in Monza is finished, engines with the same wear level come out of their dyno runs in Brixworth.

So ? All four engine manufacturers can do it. What is the point? what does that make anything different...i am confused

They need time for monitoring. They could not even monitor the Ferrari tricks present on some straights. Now if you can switch the trick on and off as you want, the FIA has no way of finding them.

So the map ban from quly to race will achieve that??
I thought according to you the goal was to run x number of races in one engine

Why do you thin it needs to be aimed at only one thing? Of course you need to look at many points that change. The whole thing is clearly aimed to level the engines, but of course it needs to work also on the usual points like cost reduction.

And no, I do not think the FIA can police the engines very well after the change. But it is a step from "impossible" to "not very well".

[siskue2005]

Why do you thin it needs to be aimed at only one thing? Of course you need to look at many points that change. The whole thing is clearly aimed to level the engines, but of course it needs to work also on the usual points like cost reduction.

Hence i stand by my previous point, it is stupid really

And no, I do not think the FIA can police the engines very well after the change. But it is a step from "impossible" to "not very well".

Could you any show proof or technical know how of that claim? (as this is a technical forum)

[basti313]

Why do you thin it needs to be aimed at only one thing? Of course you need to look at many points that change. The whole thing is clearly aimed to level the engines, but of course it needs to work also on the usual points like cost reduction.

Hence i stand by my previous point, it is stupid really

I think it is clearly the opposite. Introducing something that clearly would trigger extra dyno runs is stupid. Wear specific maps is stupid as well.
We are in the situation with development tokens, the engine dev costs are intended to drop. It would be super stupid to forbid constant evolution of the engine for cost reasons while they open up a completely new field of wear specific race maps...
I would even go further and say "one engine, one map, all the races". Only deployment strategy to be changed according to the track. They are not allowed to change the pistons for chamber changes between the races...so why are they allowed to change the ignition settings?

And no, I do not think the FIA can police the engines very well after the change. But it is a step from "impossible" to "not very well".

Could you any show proof or technical know how of that claim? (as this is a technical forum)

Well, this is the claim of FIA...so it would be rather your job to disproof...

But simple proof: The FIA can not police software, this is clear since 20 years ago when they could not police the tracktion control. The map is software. Now with a stable map, they have at least a chance...but if the car has 20 maps and the drivers cycle them all the time it is 20 times more afford to police them.

[siskue2005]

I think it is clearly the opposite. Introducing something that clearly would trigger extra dyno runs is stupid. Wear specific maps is stupid as well.

Cant they do that even with the new rule??

We are in the situation with development tokens, the engine dev costs are intended to drop. It would be super stupid to forbid constant evolution of the engine for cost reasons while they open up a completely new field of wear specific race maps...

So do u think they are all going to scrap their engine map department just coz they need to use one map in qualy and race? Really?

I would even go further and say "one engine, one map, all the races". Only deployment strategy to be changed according to the track. They are not allowed to change the pistons for chamber changes between the races...so why are they allowed to change the ignition settings?

Thank god you are not in FIA who makes the rule, although you would be a perfect candidate for them

And no, I do not think the FIA can police the engines very well after the change. But it is a step from "impossible" to "not very well".

Could you any show proof or technical know how of that claim? (as this is a technical forum)

Well, this is the claim of FIA...so it would be rather your job to disproof...

The FIA never said this >>>> But it is a step from "impossible" to "not very well".

But simple proof: The FIA can not police software, this is clear since 20 years ago when they could not police the tracktion control. The map is software. Now with a stable map, they have at least a chance...but if the car has 20 maps and the drivers cycle them all the time it is 20 times more afford to police them.

Really? since 2008 they have standard ECU and all software is passing through FIA server and everything is monitored, and every software is to be submitted to FIA before being apporved.
now please dont tell me FIA cannot monitor what is passing through their own server
https://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/31/tra ... g-in-2008/

So the stable map is the only way according to you it can be monitored? please provide technical reasons for what you are saying.

[Big Tea]

There is nothing stopping a team taking a new engine every race is there?
Other than cost and a grid penalty. Take for instance, AT.
They are among the mid field but capable of getting up there with a little extra power.
A new engine in high output high damage condition, good race and points, then use for practice the following week as the last of the life is used, then a new engine and 10 place grid drop. But an engine with enough extra to easily get back into the top 10, then probably enough extra to get near the top 5.

Only cost really, offset by points.

[siskue2005]

There is nothing stopping a team taking a new engine every race is there?
Other than cost and a grid penalty. Take for instance, AT.
They are among the mid field but capable of getting up there with a little extra power.
A new engine in high output high damage condition, good race and points, then use for practice the following week as the last of the life is used, then a new engine and 10 place grid drop. But an engine with enough extra to easily get back into the top 10, then probably enough extra to get near the top 5.

Only cost really, offset by points.

No, according to AMUS as posted above, all Engine make teams should run the same mode. (i dont know if it is true or not)
But IMO it is really stupid
essentially killing the race IMHO

[basti313]

There is nothing stopping a team taking a new engine every race is there?
Other than cost and a grid penalty. Take for instance, AT.
They are among the mid field but capable of getting up there with a little extra power.
A new engine in high output high damage condition, good race and points, then use for practice the following week as the last of the life is used, then a new engine and 10 place grid drop. But an engine with enough extra to easily get back into the top 10, then probably enough extra to get near the top 5.

Only cost really, offset by points.

No, according to AMUS as posted above, all Engine make teams should run the same mode. (i dont know if it is true or not)
But IMO it is really stupid
essentially killing the race IMHO

Why?