[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[the EDGE]

The red flag rule have changend so many times. It's impossible to make it fair. Would stroll be 23 sec in front before red flag the rule would be completely fair.

That isn't the red flag rule, that's the accident. They would have had a safety car at the minimum and that built up lead would have been lost anyways.

I actually think you should allow the tire change but force a pit drive thru penalty with it. That would be fair. They're still gaining 5 seconds from not having to come to a full stop and swap tire. They also save on the risk of something going wrong in a regular pitstop.

That drive through would put you at the back of the field since everyone's bunched up on restart. Just prohibiting tire change under red flag would do because it serves everyone.

Not really, If Ocon wouldn’t have changed his tyre during red flag he was in for a huge punishment that would have sent him to back of grid as they were all bunched-up and it wouldn’t have been his fault or fair for him

Truth is there is no ‘fair’ solution, what ever you do would have benefited some and punished others

The only thing to learn from this was closing the pits when the safety car came out was a mistake, as it severely affect the race of all of the front runners by grouping the field together before they were allowed to make their stops

They should have put out Virtual safety car for a few laps first allowing tyres to be change under as near representative conditions as possible before closing the pits

It’s not as if there was a dangerous situation, or the need for urgency

[diffuser]

That isn't the red flag rule, that's the accident. They would have had a safety car at the minimum and that built up lead would have been lost anyways.

I actually think you should allow the tire change but force a pit drive thru penalty with it. That would be fair. They're still gaining 5 seconds from not having to come to a full stop and swap tire. They also save on the risk of something going wrong in a regular pitstop.

That drive through would put you at the back of the field since everyone's bunched up on restart. Just prohibiting tire change under red flag would do because it serves everyone.

Agreed. I think you need to make an exception for safety reasons...a what if.

As for the EDGE's comments on Ocon. The rule needs to be fair not an advantage for Ocon. The fact is that he was where he was because he hadn't changed his tires. He would have lost 3-5 positions normally. Thing is Ocon, I believe, was on Hards. So I believe he could have done another 10 laps on them, then switch to softs.

[the EDGE]

That isn't the red flag rule, that's the accident. They would have had a safety car at the minimum and that built up lead would have been lost anyways.

I actually think you should allow the tire change but force a pit drive thru penalty with it. That would be fair. They're still gaining 5 seconds from not having to come to a full stop and swap tire. They also save on the risk of something going wrong in a regular pitstop.

That drive through would put you at the back of the field since everyone's bunched up on restart. Just prohibiting tire change under red flag would do because it serves everyone.

Agreed. I think you need to make an exception for safety reasons...a what if.

As for the EDGE's comments on Ocon. The rule needs to be fair not an advantage for Ocon. The fact is that he was where he was because he hadn't changed his tires. He would have lost 3-5 positions normally. Thing is Ocon, I believe, was on Hards. So I believe he could have done another 10 laps on them, then switch to softs.

But the Ocon situation was just an example

Imagine Lando was 25 seconds clear of the field and yet to make a stop (yes I know that’s a big ask lol). Then the race got red flagged and he wasn’t allowed to change his tyres. All of a sudden he has to go from 1st to last on the restart as he needs to pit. How is that fair?

Same goes for the situation we found ourselves in with the pit lane closed when all of the front runners lost out to those that made early stops that should have screwed their races

Far better to have the cars run under VSC for a lap or 2, allowing tyre changes and everyone to stay as close to their current position as possible before red flagging the race and then prohibit tyre changes

Obviously if the track was strewn with debris, or there was a serious situation on track then that probably wouldn’t be possible, but where it is possible that is the fairest solution I can come up with. The only downside would be the loss of an extra couple of laps under non-racing conditions

[SmallSoldier]

The Red Flag rule didn’t play in our favor yesterday, but I don’t think it is that much different than been allowed to pit during Safety Cars... If you pit before the Safety Car, most often than not it penalizes you since everyone get several seconds advantage against you.

Yesterday’s situation was a very fortuitous one, in which someone like Gasly (who should have been penalized by the Safety Car) got lucky because they closed the pitlane, if not, it would have hurt him more than the rest since he pitted before the Safety Car came out... Stroll was also lucky, since his team decided not to pit him after the second Safety Car (which would have been the obvious choice) and stayed out, not because of a potential red flag, but in order to maintain track position.


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[the EDGE]

The Red Flag rule didn’t play in our favor yesterday, but I don’t think it is that much different than been allowed to pit during Safety Cars... If you pit before the Safety Car, most often than not it penalizes you since everyone get several seconds advantage against you.

Yesterday’s situation was a very fortuitous one, in which someone like Gasly (who should have been penalized by the Safety Car) got lucky because they closed the pitlane, if not, it would have hurt him more than the rest since he pitted before the Safety Car came out... Stroll was also lucky, since his team decided not to pit him after the second Safety Car (which would have been the obvious choice) and stayed out, not because of a potential red flag, but in order to maintain track position.


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Agreed, it’s what I said a few posts above, in reality there is no completely fair solution, you always have winners & losers

Ocon got double lucky this time round, Gasley just lucky the once, but in the interest of providing a Race result reflective of pace & not luck, F1 should try to look at ways of minimising a shake up of the grid when such an anomalies occur

[SmallSoldier]

The Red Flag rule didn’t play in our favor yesterday, but I don’t think it is that much different than been allowed to pit during Safety Cars... If you pit before the Safety Car, most often than not it penalizes you since everyone get several seconds advantage against you.

Yesterday’s situation was a very fortuitous one, in which someone like Gasly (who should have been penalized by the Safety Car) got lucky because they closed the pitlane, if not, it would have hurt him more than the rest since he pitted before the Safety Car came out... Stroll was also lucky, since his team decided not to pit him after the second Safety Car (which would have been the obvious choice) and stayed out, not because of a potential red flag, but in order to maintain track position.


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Agreed, it’s what I said a few posts above, in reality there is no completely fair solution, you always have winners & losers

Ocon got double lucky this time round, Gasley just lucky the once, but in the interest of providing a Race result reflective of pace & not luck, F1 should try to look at ways of minimising a shake up of the grid when such an anomalies occur

I agree, the rules need to be as fair as possible... But, sometimes is almost impossible and there will always be winners and losers.

If they would ban pit stops during Safety Cars, those that pitted before one will benefit because the field is bunched up and the ones that need to pit afterwards will be going to the back of the field... Today, it rewards those who go long enough.

The Red Flag rule also makes sense since it is intended for heavy accidents, that most often than not imply a considerable amount of debris on track, therefore allowing the teams to make the necessary repairs (which would include tires).

Unluckily, I don’t see how they could come out with a rule that is “fair” to the whole field... Even VSC, which seems to be a fairer outcome is also unfair in itself, because it can have a huge effect on your race depending on when the VSC is lifted (for example, someone at the end of an straight in VSC gets penalized versus someone starting the straight), we’ve seeing people gain 2 second + advantage when the VSC was lifted just based on their track position or when they were coming back to their delta).

Situations like yesterday are part of Motorsports and I personally like that there is a certain degree (although very low probability) of having huge shake ups on a race based on exceptional situations... The fact that it isn’t a common occurrence makes changes unwarranted.


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[diffuser]

That drive through would put you at the back of the field since everyone's bunched up on restart. Just prohibiting tire change under red flag would do because it serves everyone.

Agreed. I think you need to make an exception for safety reasons...a what if.

As for the EDGE's comments on Ocon. The rule needs to be fair not an advantage for Ocon. The fact is that he was where he was because he hadn't changed his tires. He would have lost 3-5 positions normally. Thing is Ocon, I believe, was on Hards. So I believe he could have done another 10 laps on them, then switch to softs.

But the Ocon situation was just an example

Imagine Lando was 25 seconds clear of the field and yet to make a stop (yes I know that’s a big ask lol). Then the race got red flagged and he wasn’t allowed to change his tyres. All of a sudden he has to go from 1st to last on the restart as he needs to pit. How is that fair?

Same goes for the situation we found ourselves in with the pit lane closed when all of the front runners lost out to those that made early stops that should have screwed their races

Far better to have the cars run under VSC for a lap or 2, allowing tyre changes and everyone to stay as close to their current position as possible before red flagging the race and then prohibit tyre changes

Obviously if the track was strewn with debris, or there was a serious situation on track then that probably wouldn’t be possible, but where it is possible that is the fairest solution I can come up with. The only downside would be the loss of an extra couple of laps under non-racing conditions

I guess your saying, if you're 25 seconds clear and haven't pitted but everyone else has....That means you're really only 1 second ahead (the time for a pitstop being 24 sec for sake of argument). After the red flag and not having been able to replace your tires...then you'd likely come out near the back if you had to pit soon after the restart. I'd say sucks for you.

[trinidefender]

The merc's were set up to be infront. Plenty downforce and easy on the cooling. Had they known they had to fight, I'm sure they would have been harder to keep back. Its only a fluke that made it that way.

Not dissing the Mac's, tremendous result and top performance

Slight correction, to run fast at Monza (where ideal setups are already heavily downforce compromised) in the front, they would have been set up with less downforce. Cars that are expecting to scrap in the midfield will set up with more downforce as they know they are driving behind someone. Driving behind someone reduces drag and downforce already so they will have to add of some for the ideal lap time. Add in that running less downforce to begin with means the percentage reduction of drag with DRS open is lower with a low downforce setup.

It's different for every car based on its characteristics. Button had a huge wing in 2010 yet he almost won. But the Mcl34 couldn't handle low-df config so the best lap time was with a higher df setup than the Renaults & Ferraris etc. The particular way air travels through a car would determine this.

Every car is set up for the ideal lap time. e.g This weekend the Mclarens ran less df than most yet they had problems with turbulent air since Friday.

The Merc couldn't get pass the midfield because of engine overheating and Bottas's driving.

Nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

My point was simply that at Monza, a car setup for an ideal lap time in traffic will be running higher downforce than a car setup for an ideal lap time while running in clean air.

This is shown when mercedes weren't even bothering to get a tow for their qualification laps while all the other teams were trying to get a tow from other cars.

[SmallSoldier]

Slight correction, to run fast at Monza (where ideal setups are already heavily downforce compromised) in the front, they would have been set up with less downforce. Cars that are expecting to scrap in the midfield will set up with more downforce as they know they are driving behind someone. Driving behind someone reduces drag and downforce already so they will have to add of some for the ideal lap time. Add in that running less downforce to begin with means the percentage reduction of drag with DRS open is lower with a low downforce setup.

It's different for every car based on its characteristics. Button had a huge wing in 2010 yet he almost won. But the Mcl34 couldn't handle low-df config so the best lap time was with a higher df setup than the Renaults & Ferraris etc. The particular way air travels through a car would determine this.

Every car is set up for the ideal lap time. e.g This weekend the Mclarens ran less df than most yet they had problems with turbulent air since Friday.

The Merc couldn't get pass the midfield because of engine overheating and Bottas's driving.

Nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

My point was simply that at Monza, a car setup for an ideal lap time in traffic will be running higher downforce than a car setup for an ideal lap time while running in clean air.

This is shown when mercedes weren't even bothering to get a tow for their qualification laps while all the other teams were trying to get a tow from other cars.

Not necessarily, I believe McLaren knew they were going to run in the midfield (or behind other cars) and they opted for a very low DF setup regardless... The advantage of carrying enough top speed to make a potential overtake and more importantly to defend from the cars behind (as Lando did all race) was a good compromise versus losing downforce and time in Sector 2... Which was the main reason why Lando stayed approximately 4 seconds from the car in front during most of the race and also the reason why Carlos couldn’t get close enough to Gasly at the end of the race (he would win 3-5 tenths in Sectors 1 and 3 and lose 3-4 tenths in sector 2 because of the dirty air from Gasly).

It’s a matter of compromises and both strategies were fair for the teams... In Mercedes case, they run more downforce in order to not only have a good sector 2 (the sector that created their gap in qualifying) and also to protect the tires (the more DF the less the tires slide, the more you protect them)... This amount of DF allowed Bottas to remain very close to Lando in S2, but the drag that it had prevented him from making the overtake in the main straight.


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[Andres125sx]

OMG, I´ve just watched the race, or the two races to be more precise... WOW!!!

P1 Gasly, P2 Sainz, P3 Stroll, who would have imagine that? Gasly was lucky with the safety car as he pitted just before, and Stroll was lucky with the red flag as he didn´t pitted yet.

But Carlos did it on pure merit. Actually he did it on merit twice!

It´s been his very best weekend in F1 by far, let´s take a look back:

- In free practice p10, p6 and p2. Nobody took that p2 in fp3 seriously, but then..
- P3 in qualifying Few people though he could keep the podium, but then...
- P2 in first lap, nobody though he could keep that, but he did
- Then the red flag sent him to p6
- But he never gave up and climbed to p2 again!
- Two laps to go, his engineer:

Carlos you are second. No mistakes, let´s keep it clinical

Carlos reply:

I want this win Tom

Kudos to him

Unfortunately there was not enough pace difference with Gasly to pass all those cars and then the Alpha Tauri, bittersweet feeling, period, but what a weekend for Carlos! For the whole team actually with that p2 and p4, but Carlos weekend was just stellar

[mwillems]

It would have been an amazing win, but it wasn't to be and I'm certain there will be a time in the future when we will benefit from those same rules.

But we were the second fastest car out there, Racing point and to a lesser extent Red Bull now seem vulnerable due to the engine modes and we have extended our distance to Renault in the run in for 3rd place for the championship. I'm sad for Carlos but he also wasn't able to close the gap faster than he did so it is what it is.

In any case, this is a great position to be in and we have had some bad luck in the previous races, so it bodes very well for the remainder of the season and for next year.

I mean, come on, did anyone think we had a car to challenge red bull at any track, let alone smash them? Mercedes aside, F1 isn't a procession anymore and the run in will be intense, you've got to celebrate that!

[Emag]

Yeah, to be honest there are a lot of positives coming out of this season. I feel like McLaren is carrying out the path to success that Renault had a couple of years ago, in which they have arguably failed to achieve so far.

The path for Renault was 9th in 2016, 6th in 2017 and 4th in 2018. Then the plan was to challenge for occasional podiums on 2019 and take it from there but they hit somewhat of a bump last year.

McLaren similarly was 9th in 2017, 6th in 2018 and they ended up as 4th last year. I know the team tried to not hype their chances so much going into 2020, but I think the majority of people were expecting at least a (proper) podium this year. And they have managed to get 2 so far.

It's honestly great to see even when considering the unusual circumstances, because at the end of the day it's not McLaren's fault that Ferrari went backwards and RedBull didn't make the jump they were probably hoping to.

What's important is that the team has maintained the trend of improvement even this year, which was particularly important because it was the first proper year with the new team of people that Zak put together.

It's honestly a relief that the new team is working perfectly. And for the first time in ages I am actually looking forward to the future as a McLaren fan. The reunion with Mercedes, the new factory investments, Daniel coming in and the new regulations for 2022. These are all opportunities that can bring McLaren back where it belongs, if seized by the team of course.

So stop getting upset by missed unlucky victories people, and look at the bright side.

The things are looking up!

[ScottR267]

Yeah, to be honest there are a lot of positives coming out of this season. I feel like McLaren is carrying out the path to success that Renault had a couple of years ago, in which they have arguably failed to achieve so far.

The path for Renault was 9th in 2016, 6th in 2017 and 4th in 2018. Then the plan was to challenge for occasional podiums on 2019 and take it from there but they hit somewhat of a bump last year.

McLaren similarly was 9th in 2017, 6th in 2018 and they ended up as 4th last year. I know the team tried to not hype their chances so much going into 2020, but I think the majority of people were expecting at least a (proper) podium this year. And they have managed to get 2 so far.

It's honestly great to see even when considering the unusual circumstances, because at the end of the day it's not McLaren's fault that Ferrari went backwards and RedBull didn't make the jump they were probably hoping to.

What's important is that the team has maintained the trend of improvement even this year, which was particularly important because it was the first proper year with the new team of people that Zak put together.

It's honestly a relief that the new team is working perfectly. And for the first time in ages I am actually looking forward to the future as a McLaren fan. The reunion with Mercedes, the new factory investments, Daniel coming in and the new regulations for 2022. These are all opportunities that can bring McLaren back where it belongs, if seized by the team of course.

So stop getting upset by missed unlucky victories people, and look at the bright side.

The things are looking up!

Second this! After a bleak 4-5 seasons, things are certainly looking up for the team! I just hope the team can capitalise on the rule changes!

[diffuser]

They are doing well and we are close to RBR. That is great but it has more to with Ferrari's fall from grace more than anything else. All the extra points the midfield teams have are coming at Ferrari's expense. I don't expect Ferrari to rebound much next year either.

[PhillipM]

I mean everyone's points come from someone elses fall when it comes down to it.