[ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

[Jolle]

If you don't count the alleged illegal 17-19 car, Ferrari hasn't build a championship capable winning car since 2009. Is there any indication, recent hires or investments that could lead to a winning car for the first time in over a decade? It does feel like false hope.

Illegal ? 2017 car with better aero than Mercedes or 2018 car. You drink too much.

I think you’ve had your pink glasses on. Ferrari won 5 races vs 12 for Mercedes.

[bruno958]

If you don't count the alleged illegal 17-19 car, Ferrari hasn't build a championship capable winning car since 2009. Is there any indication, recent hires or investments that could lead to a winning car for the first time in over a decade? It does feel like false hope.

Agreed....at this point I am very bitter as a Ferrari tifoso. When the decision was made to pursue the 'cheating' strategy on the engine why did they not put in place efforts to develop a 'legal' path ? Not enough funds or resources? Do not think so. I was reading somewhere that Montezemolo was quoted as stating that the biggest stumbling block for Ferrari was the advent of the energy recovery system in 2010-2011 and the consequent downsizing from V8 to V6 engine blocks. I guess the Italians were way behind in development and engineering of the KER system technology unlike the Germans.

[Moore77]

If you don't count the alleged illegal 17-19 car, Ferrari hasn't build a championship capable winning car since 2009. Is there any indication, recent hires or investments that could lead to a winning car for the first time in over a decade? It does feel like false hope.

"Alleged illegal"? Could you say the same for Mercedes cars from 2014 to 2016, with regards to oil burning? It was also an allegation. Mercedes also slowed down in qualifying after oil burning restrictions were brought in. Does that mean, the previous cars were "Alleged illegal"? Fuel limit restrictions were in place to ensure, the PU can't be fed more fuel than what was allowed and under that light, oil being used as an additional fuel was illegal.

Mercedes W06 FRIC suspension was banned mid season. It was a classic case of illegal car being run, gaining illegal aero advantage from suspension. It wasn't even called "Alleged Illegal", which was actually illegal and Mercedes should have been disqualified for all those races where it used it.

One can say the same for EBD enabled Red Bull RB7. EBD was banned for 2012 by changing the exhaust layout. Using the 2012 impact it had on RB8, one can easily call RB7 as "Alleged Illegal" as it was apparent that, banning EBD had an impact to RB8. EBD was an undesired consequence of the poorly regulated area, just like the single sensor fuel monitoring was a poorly regulated area. You can't retrofit the regulations and allege the previous cars as illegal. We can bring more such instances.

[Bsowles]

From Ferrari CEO TODAY '"Mercedes, hats off to them, they've done an incredible job and we'll see in 2022 with the new regs, whether it creates a reset. That's our hope."
Stop watching races until March of 2022. It will be Mercedes 1 and 2 until then. Unless Ferrari hires competent people, it will continue to be Mercedes 1 and 2 until F1 goes bankrupt for lack of viewership.

Totally out of left-field here....with Binotto’s incompetence, is there any remote consideration of bringing back Arrivebenne?

[hurril]

If you don't count the alleged illegal 17-19 car, Ferrari hasn't build a championship capable winning car since 2009. Is there any indication, recent hires or investments that could lead to a winning car for the first time in over a decade? It does feel like false hope.

"Alleged illegal"? Could you say the same for Mercedes cars from 2014 to 2016, with regards to oil burning? It was also an allegation. Mercedes also slowed down in qualifying after oil burning restrictions were brought in. Does that mean, the previous cars were "Alleged illegal"? Fuel limit restrictions were in place to ensure, the PU can't be fed more fuel than what was allowed and under that light, oil being used as an additional fuel was illegal.

Mercedes W06 FRIC suspension was banned mid season. It was a classic case of illegal car being run, gaining illegal aero advantage from suspension. It wasn't even called "Alleged Illegal", which was actually illegal and Mercedes should have been disqualified for all those races where it used it.

One can say the same for EBD enabled Red Bull RB7. EBD was banned for 2012 by changing the exhaust layout. Using the 2012 impact it had on RB8, one can easily call RB7 as "Alleged Illegal" as it was apparent that, banning EBD had an impact to RB8. EBD was an undesired consequence of the poorly regulated area, just like the single sensor fuel monitoring was a poorly regulated area. You can't retrofit the regulations and allege the previous cars as illegal. We can bring more such instances.

Stop with this nonsense and be a fan of the sport instead of letting yourself be blinded by what you feel is your own team. Ferrari was caught and made to remove all the illegal kit on their car with a severely reduced performance as a result. No amount of relativizing is going to get around that fact. Mercedes (and Ferrari) were made to stop with the oil burning and now Ferrari was made to stop with whatever they were doing but one of them was doing a little more than the other, shall we say.

[Moore77]

If you don't count the alleged illegal 17-19 car, Ferrari hasn't build a championship capable winning car since 2009. Is there any indication, recent hires or investments that could lead to a winning car for the first time in over a decade? It does feel like false hope.

"Alleged illegal"? Could you say the same for Mercedes cars from 2014 to 2016, with regards to oil burning? It was also an allegation. Mercedes also slowed down in qualifying after oil burning restrictions were brought in. Does that mean, the previous cars were "Alleged illegal"? Fuel limit restrictions were in place to ensure, the PU can't be fed more fuel than what was allowed and under that light, oil being used as an additional fuel was illegal.

Mercedes W06 FRIC suspension was banned mid season. It was a classic case of illegal car being run, gaining illegal aero advantage from suspension. It wasn't even called "Alleged Illegal", which was actually illegal and Mercedes should have been disqualified for all those races where it used it.

One can say the same for EBD enabled Red Bull RB7. EBD was banned for 2012 by changing the exhaust layout. Using the 2012 impact it had on RB8, one can easily call RB7 as "Alleged Illegal" as it was apparent that, banning EBD had an impact to RB8. EBD was an undesired consequence of the poorly regulated area, just like the single sensor fuel monitoring was a poorly regulated area. You can't retrofit the regulations and allege the previous cars as illegal. We can bring more such instances.

Stop with this nonsense and be a fan of the sport instead of letting yourself be blinded by what you feel is your own team. Ferrari was caught and made to remove all the illegal kit on their car with a severely reduced performance as a result. No amount of relativizing is going to get around that fact. Mercedes (and Ferrari) were made to stop with the oil burning and now Ferrari was made to stop with whatever they were doing but one of them was doing a little more than the other, shall we say.

The lowest level of discourse you can get to, is when you start denouncing the arguments by calling them nonsense. This happens when someone lose rationale and have unilateral thinking. Instead of having sane arguments, you tend to throw emotions to try and shut someone else's opinion. I don't understand what makes some people think that, it's only their perspective that is right and others' is not. Get yourself out of irrational hatred towards Ferrari, which would then make you the non partisan fan of the sport. Please grow up and use right words in an argument and stop being bossy here as no one cares to take orders from strangers on an internet forum. If you don't like what is written, ignore it. You have all rights to participate on my post, as long as you stay respectful.

[LM10]

If you don't count the alleged illegal 17-19 car, Ferrari hasn't build a championship capable winning car since 2009. Is there any indication, recent hires or investments that could lead to a winning car for the first time in over a decade? It does feel like false hope.

Illegal ? 2017 car with better aero than Mercedes or 2018 car. You drink too much.

I think you’ve had your pink glasses on. Ferrari won 5 races vs 12 for Mercedes.

2017 Ferrari clearly had the best chassis/aero. The main reason they lost was huge power deficit compared to Mercedes.

[Polite]

Illegal ? 2017 car with better aero than Mercedes or 2018 car. You drink too much.

I think you’ve had your pink glasses on. Ferrari won 5 races vs 12 for Mercedes.

2017 Ferrari clearly had the best chassis/aero. The main reason they lost was huge power deficit compared to Mercedes.

because AMG didnt attend the gentleman agreement on burning oil: 0,6l per 100km in race.. Mercedes won with an ice burning 0,9lper100km from Monza till the end of the yaer
https://azertag.az/en/xeber/FIA_confirm ... it-1089458

Toto also said this year that they are still burning oil while lubrification is done with new exotic materials..

[subcritical71]

I think you’ve had your pink glasses on. Ferrari won 5 races vs 12 for Mercedes.

2017 Ferrari clearly had the best chassis/aero. The main reason they lost was huge power deficit compared to Mercedes.

because AMG didnt attend the gentleman agreement on burning oil: 0,6l per 100km in race.. Mercedes won with an ice burning 0,9lper100km from Monza till the end of the yaer
https://azertag.az/en/xeber/FIA_confirm ... it-1089458

Toto also said this year that they are still burning oil while lubrification is done with new exotic materials..

Show me an engine that isn't burning oil and I'll show you a car (engine) that is parked in the grass runoff area.

[Polite]

2017 Ferrari clearly had the best chassis/aero. The main reason they lost was huge power deficit compared to Mercedes.

because AMG didnt attend the gentleman agreement on burning oil: 0,6l per 100km in race.. Mercedes won with an ice burning 0,9lper100km from Monza till the end of the yaer
https://azertag.az/en/xeber/FIA_confirm ... it-1089458

Toto also said this year that they are still burning oil while lubrification is done with new exotic materials..

Show me an engine that isn't burning oil and I'll show you a car (engine) that is parked in the grass runoff area.

Rumors on Renault is that they dont burn oil at all.
Amg was the first.. Ferrari followed.. but the main fact here is that while Ferrari got a Pu burning 0,6lper100km from Monza 2017 till the end, Amg burned 0,9lper100km for all the 2017 season: after that Ferrari got problems on the PU (Suzuka for Vettel!) side and lost the championship.
only in Uk noone want to see what happened that year

[hurril]

"Alleged illegal"? Could you say the same for Mercedes cars from 2014 to 2016, with regards to oil burning? It was also an allegation. Mercedes also slowed down in qualifying after oil burning restrictions were brought in. Does that mean, the previous cars were "Alleged illegal"? Fuel limit restrictions were in place to ensure, the PU can't be fed more fuel than what was allowed and under that light, oil being used as an additional fuel was illegal.

Mercedes W06 FRIC suspension was banned mid season. It was a classic case of illegal car being run, gaining illegal aero advantage from suspension. It wasn't even called "Alleged Illegal", which was actually illegal and Mercedes should have been disqualified for all those races where it used it.

One can say the same for EBD enabled Red Bull RB7. EBD was banned for 2012 by changing the exhaust layout. Using the 2012 impact it had on RB8, one can easily call RB7 as "Alleged Illegal" as it was apparent that, banning EBD had an impact to RB8. EBD was an undesired consequence of the poorly regulated area, just like the single sensor fuel monitoring was a poorly regulated area. You can't retrofit the regulations and allege the previous cars as illegal. We can bring more such instances.

Stop with this nonsense and be a fan of the sport instead of letting yourself be blinded by what you feel is your own team. Ferrari was caught and made to remove all the illegal kit on their car with a severely reduced performance as a result. No amount of relativizing is going to get around that fact. Mercedes (and Ferrari) were made to stop with the oil burning and now Ferrari was made to stop with whatever they were doing but one of them was doing a little more than the other, shall we say.

The lowest level of discourse you can get to, is when you start denouncing the arguments by calling them nonsense. This happens when someone lose rationale and have unilateral thinking. Instead of having sane arguments, you tend to throw emotions to try and shut someone else's opinion. I don't understand what makes some people think that, it's only their perspective that is right and others' is not. Get yourself out of irrational hatred towards Ferrari, which would then make you the non partisan fan of the sport. Please grow up and use right words in an argument and stop being bossy here as no one cares to take orders from strangers on an internet forum. If you don't like what is written, ignore it. You have all rights to participate on my post, as long as you stay respectful.

You are right in everything you say here but the emotions here are all yours. My post actually contains arguments. I talk about the oil burning they were all(?) doing and then I make a comparison with the current situation. These are called arguments.

I don't hate Ferrari, you are married to Ferrari. I love Ferrari because I am a fan of the sport. Ferrari is fantastic, their cars look great, they used to have a good engine but they were also not playing by the same rules.

Read you post again but put my name as the sender and yours as a target. It makes more sense that way, doesn't it?

[Moore77]

Stop with this nonsense and be a fan of the sport instead of letting yourself be blinded by what you feel is your own team. Ferrari was caught and made to remove all the illegal kit on their car with a severely reduced performance as a result. No amount of relativizing is going to get around that fact. Mercedes (and Ferrari) were made to stop with the oil burning and now Ferrari was made to stop with whatever they were doing but one of them was doing a little more than the other, shall we say.

The lowest level of discourse you can get to, is when you start denouncing the arguments by calling them nonsense. This happens when someone lose rationale and have unilateral thinking. Instead of having sane arguments, you tend to throw emotions to try and shut someone else's opinion. I don't understand what makes some people think that, it's only their perspective that is right and others' is not. Get yourself out of irrational hatred towards Ferrari, which would then make you the non partisan fan of the sport. Please grow up and use right words in an argument and stop being bossy here as no one cares to take orders from strangers on an internet forum. If you don't like what is written, ignore it. You have all rights to participate on my post, as long as you stay respectful.

You are right in everything you say here but the emotions here are all yours. My post actually contains arguments. I talk about the oil burning they were all(?) doing and then I make a comparison with the current situation. These are called arguments.

I don't hate Ferrari, you are married to Ferrari. I love Ferrari because I am a fan of the sport. Ferrari is fantastic, their cars look great, they used to have a good engine but they were also not playing by the same rules.

Read you post again but put my name as the sender and yours as a target. It makes more sense that way, doesn't it?

I sincerely feel for you and the impact of those emotions on you. I wish I could help! The choice of words and tone associated is what represents aggressive emotions. Unfortunately, your post was nothing more than ranting. Opinions (they were also not playing the same rules) scattered as facts.

The new TD from FIA with regards to an additional sensor, has impacted their 2020 PU, as accepted by Binotto. You can't take 2020 rules and apply on 2019 and say, they were not playing by the rules. These are new rules, identified after realizing they left a grey area open. Just like the oil burning reduced the impact of quali mode on Mercedes. You can say, Mercedes did not play by the rules too! I have presented a few cases above, which I am not sure how much you read. I understand why you wouldn't have though.

[hurril]

The lowest level of discourse you can get to, is when you start denouncing the arguments by calling them nonsense. This happens when someone lose rationale and have unilateral thinking. Instead of having sane arguments, you tend to throw emotions to try and shut someone else's opinion. I don't understand what makes some people think that, it's only their perspective that is right and others' is not. Get yourself out of irrational hatred towards Ferrari, which would then make you the non partisan fan of the sport. Please grow up and use right words in an argument and stop being bossy here as no one cares to take orders from strangers on an internet forum. If you don't like what is written, ignore it. You have all rights to participate on my post, as long as you stay respectful.

You are right in everything you say here but the emotions here are all yours. My post actually contains arguments. I talk about the oil burning they were all(?) doing and then I make a comparison with the current situation. These are called arguments.

I don't hate Ferrari, you are married to Ferrari. I love Ferrari because I am a fan of the sport. Ferrari is fantastic, their cars look great, they used to have a good engine but they were also not playing by the same rules.

Read you post again but put my name as the sender and yours as a target. It makes more sense that way, doesn't it?

I sincerely feel for you and the impact of those emotions on you. I wish I could help! The choice of words and tone associated is what represents aggressive emotions. Unfortunately, your post was nothing more than ranting. Opinions (they were also not playing the same rules) scattered as facts.

The new TD from FIA with regards to an additional sensor, has impacted their 2020 PU, as accepted by Binotto. You can't take 2020 rules and apply on 2019 and say, they were not playing by the rules. These are new rules, identified after realizing they left a grey area open. Just like the oil burning reduced the impact of quali mode on Mercedes. You can say, Mercedes did not play by the rules too! I have presented a few cases above, which I am not sure how much you read. I understand why you wouldn't have though.

You feel sorry for me? This is out of line and I think you realise that. Enough of that.

The sensor was put there to understand in what way they were circumventing _the 2019 rules._

The cars were allowed to use oil and it was even specified how much. That was then changed and with that there were consequences. I'll just take your word for it when it comes to the negative impact this had on Mercedes' quali performance so we can deduce that they were in fact burning it.

If you had made this level of fuzz over Mercedes losing performance over the forbidden oil burning back then, then I would have called you out on that too. And you would have felt sorry for me and said all these things about me. No wait, you wouldn't have because you are only married to Ferrari, isn't that so?

[Moore77]

The cars were allowed to use oil and it was even specified how much. That was then changed and with that there were consequences. I'll just take your word for it when it comes to the negative impact this had on Mercedes' quali performance so we can deduce that they were in fact burning it.

Removed the irrelevant noise. Until 2017, there was no governing directive around usage of oil as fuel, but under the spirit of 100kg per hour fuel flow limit, it was deemed illegal to any substances as fuel. Later, the cars were allowed to use oil as a lubricant, NOT AS A FUEL! The accusation was that Mercedes was burning "oil as fuel", which was not intended in the rules and that prompted FIA to come out with more specific regulations. Just like Mercedes was allegedly exploiting a grey area (an undesired consequence) of the regulation, Ferrari was also allegedly exploiting a grey area, which is now closed with a TD, just like in "oil burning" case. They are similar cases.

You can look through the performance jump that Mercedes used to have with oil burning Vs without in qualifying and the fact becomes apparent. Ferrari suffered more than Mercedes, but that doesn't obliviate the sins in either case. Just like we don't say, Mercedes cars were "allegedly illegal" before the oil burning TD, we can't same the Ferrari of 2019 as "allegedly illegal" either. They were legal in those given rules and with those undesired grey areas.

[hurril]

The cars were allowed to use oil and it was even specified how much. That was then changed and with that there were consequences. I'll just take your word for it when it comes to the negative impact this had on Mercedes' quali performance so we can deduce that they were in fact burning it.

Removed the irrelevant noise. Until 2017, there was no governing directive around usage of oil. Later, the cars were allowed to use oil as a lubricant, NOT AS A FUEL! The accusation was that Mercedes was burning "oil as fuel", which was not intended in the rules and that prompted FIA to come out with more specific regulations. Just like Mercedes was allegedly exploiting a grey area (an undesired consequence) of the regulation, Ferrari was also allegedly exploiting a grey area, which is now closed with a TD, just like in "oil burning" case. They are similar cases.

You can look through the performance jump that Mercedes used to have with oil burning Vs without in qualifying and the fact becomes apparent. Ferrari suffered more than Mercedes, but that doesn't obliviate the sins in either case. Just like we don't say, Mercedes cars were "allegedly illegal" before the oil burning TD, we can't same the Ferrari of 2019 as "allegedly illegal" either. They were legal in those given rules and with those undesired grey areas.

Look, you're making a non-sequitur here. Even if I grant you that Mercedes cheated, that does _nothing_ for your case that is trying to say that Ferrari did not. Do you understand that?

Plus: I am not a Mercedes fanboi in any way so it's not like there's an opening for a: you dissed my team so let me diss yours-scheme either. You go right ahead and rip any other team a new one, I don't care. That's not the issue at hand here.