Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

[Just_a_fan]

You do realise 5 of those 8 were collisions and spins where Max was at fault. So please dont try and paint it in such a way where you want people to believe Max broke down 8 times and got very unlucky.

Ah, useful info.

[Wass85]

Putting this here as the thread it was going in has been closed. I think it's a valid look at Hamilton's past and comparing to others such as Schumacher. Hence it's relevant to this thread.


You can't say "like for like" because Max didn't do a full build up through the junior formulae as other drivers have. Based on his performance in the junior formulae that he did do, his performance wasn't that great - he never won a junior formulae title.

Max never won a single seater title. That's a simple fact.

Interesting to compare the recent champions:

Michael - won the Formula Konig series and German F3 (at the second attempt) before starting F1 career. 3 junior years.
Alonso - won Euro Open by NIssan and finished 4th in an F3 series before starting F1 career. 2 junior years.
Kimi - won Formula Renault UK winter series (won all four races), won Formula Renault UK (7 wins in 10 races). 2 junior years.
Button - won British Formula Ford, came 3rd in F3 before F1 career. 2 junior years.
Vettel - won Formula BMW at second attempt, 2nd in F3. 4 junior years.
Rosberg - won Formula BMW at first attempt, won GP2 on only attempt. 5 junior years (4 + F1 test driver year).
Hamilton - won Formula Renault UK at second attempt, won F3 at second attempt, won GP2 on only attempt. 6 junior years.

Summary of junior series wins:
Hamilton 3
Michael 2
Kimi 2
Rosberg 2
Alonso 1
Button 1
Vettel 1

And I remember people moaning that Hamilton hadn't earned the right to be in a top car when he joined F1. He'd proved his calibre by doing several years and winning at each level before progressing.

Which makes his 3rd position in his debut F3 season even more impressive, he had much less single seater experience than Hamilton did yet still finished higher.

This was also achieved whilst having 8 dnf's to Ocon's 3.

You do realise 5 of those 8 were collisions and spins where Max was at fault. So please dont try and paint it in such a way where you want people to believe Max broke down 8 times and got very unlucky.

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

[Moore77]

Which makes his 3rd position in his debut F3 season even more impressive, he had much less single seater experience than Hamilton did yet still finished higher.

This was also achieved whilst having 8 dnf's to Ocon's 3.

You do realise 5 of those 8 were collisions and spins where Max was at fault. So please dont try and paint it in such a way where you want people to believe Max broke down 8 times and got very unlucky.

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

The situation for Max in 2014 F3 was no different to what it is today. He was driving a car powered by Opel, which was much more underpowered to Mercedes that Ocon was driving. It required Max to overdrive and be a lot more aggressive to make an impact on the championship. He emerged as a star in that rookie season. Hamilton was driving a Mercedes in his F3 debut season, but couldn't make an impact. He was driving for Manor motorsport. For the next year, he jumped into ASM 3 team (also Mercedes), which was dominant the previous year where Jamie Green had a similarly dominant year in 2004 and basically Hamilton had a year like 2020 with that dominating ASM 3 car.

[NathanOlder]

You do realise 5 of those 8 were collisions and spins where Max was at fault. So please dont try and paint it in such a way where you want people to believe Max broke down 8 times and got very unlucky.

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

The situation for Max in 2014 F3 was no different to what it is today. He was driving a car powered by Opel, which was much more underpowered to Mercedes that Ocon was driving. It required Max to overdrive and be a lot more aggressive to make an impact on the championship. He emerged as a star in that rookie season. Hamilton was driving a Mercedes in his F3 debut season, but couldn't make an impact. He was driving for Manor motorsport. For the next year, he jumped into ASM 3 team (also Mercedes), which was dominant the previous year where Jamie Green had a similarly dominant year in 2004 and basically Hamilton had a year like 2020 with that dominating ASM 3 car.

It was Volkeswagen not Opel, and the guy that finished 2nd in the championship (ahead of Max) had that same underpowered VW engine you speak about. Try another excuse maybe ?

[NathanOlder]

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

I saw the races. If you don't believe me have a look yourself.

And please stop the BS about me claiming Hamiltons 5th was better than Max's 3rd. I said Lewis' pre-F1 results were better than Max's. As you said Max and Russell's pre-F1 results were better than Lewis.

Formula Renault UK 3rd & 1st
European F3 Championship 5th & 1st
GP2 World Championship 1st

vs

European F3 Championship 3rd.

Which of these is better ? Not too hard to see is it ?


No one is doubting Max's talent, and no one is not impressed with his step up to F1 from a 3rd in Euro F3, But to say his pre-F1 career was better than Lewis' is just mind-boggling.

[Moore77]

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

The situation for Max in 2014 F3 was no different to what it is today. He was driving a car powered by Opel, which was much more underpowered to Mercedes that Ocon was driving. It required Max to overdrive and be a lot more aggressive to make an impact on the championship. He emerged as a star in that rookie season. Hamilton was driving a Mercedes in his F3 debut season, but couldn't make an impact. He was driving for Manor motorsport. For the next year, he jumped into ASM 3 team (also Mercedes), which was dominant the previous year where Jamie Green had a similarly dominant year in 2004 and basically Hamilton had a year like 2020 with that dominating ASM 3 car.

It was Volkeswagen not Opel, and the guy that finished 2nd in the championship (ahead of Max) had that same underpowered VW engine you speak about. Try another excuse maybe ?

The point is the same for both guys. Volkswagen wasn't up to mark with Mercedes and required good driving skills to put where it belonged. Hamilton, despite having Mercedes engine at the back of both cars that he drove, could make impact only when he got the dominating machine. In 2004, Hamilton didn't finish as the best rookie, it was Frank Perera. Despite being in prema powered by Opel, Frank Perera improved from 8th in 2004 to 4th in 2005.

[e30ernest]

Ok I am lost... Why are we comparing pre F1 records on a thread about F1 records again? A lot of drivers who seemed to be amazing in the lower series turned up nowhere when they got to F1 too (if they even make it there). It's like comparing the best neurosurgeon based out of his class' grades in high school.

[NathanOlder]

Ok I am lost... Why are we comparing pre F1 records on a thread about F1 records again? A lot of drivers who seemed to be amazing in the lower series turned up nowhere when they got to F1 too (if they even make it there). It's like comparing the best neurosurgeon based out of his class' grades in high school.

Yeah thats fair enough, In that case Lewis is about 10 times better than Max 89wins vs 9

[Wass85]

You do realise 5 of those 8 were collisions and spins where Max was at fault. So please dont try and paint it in such a way where you want people to believe Max broke down 8 times and got very unlucky.

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

The situation for Max in 2014 F3 was no different to what it is today. He was driving a car powered by Opel, which was much more underpowered to Mercedes that Ocon was driving. It required Max to overdrive and be a lot more aggressive to make an impact on the championship. He emerged as a star in that rookie season. Hamilton was driving a Mercedes in his F3 debut season, but couldn't make an impact. He was driving for Manor motorsport. For the next year, he jumped into ASM 3 team (also Mercedes), which was dominant the previous year where Jamie Green had a similarly dominant year in 2004 and basically Hamilton had a year like 2020 with that dominating ASM 3 car.

The same can be said for his GP2 season, didn't his teammate finish 3rd in the championship?

[Wass85]

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

I saw the races. If you don't believe me have a look yourself.

And please stop the BS about me claiming Hamiltons 5th was better than Max's 3rd. I said Lewis' pre-F1 results were better than Max's. As you said Max and Russell's pre-F1 results were better than Lewis.

Formula Renault UK 3rd & 1st
European F3 Championship 5th & 1st
GP2 World Championship 1st

vs

European F3 Championship 3rd.

Which of these is better ? Not too hard to see is it ?


No one is doubting Max's talent, and no one is not impressed with his step up to F1 from a 3rd in Euro F3, But to say his pre-F1 career was better than Lewis' is just mind-boggling.

You're trying to argue my point that like for like Verstappen was more impressive prior to entering F1, didn't Max also compete at a higher level in karting than Lewis?

[NathanOlder]

The situation for Max in 2014 F3 was no different to what it is today. He was driving a car powered by Opel, which was much more underpowered to Mercedes that Ocon was driving. It required Max to overdrive and be a lot more aggressive to make an impact on the championship. He emerged as a star in that rookie season. Hamilton was driving a Mercedes in his F3 debut season, but couldn't make an impact. He was driving for Manor motorsport. For the next year, he jumped into ASM 3 team (also Mercedes), which was dominant the previous year where Jamie Green had a similarly dominant year in 2004 and basically Hamilton had a year like 2020 with that dominating ASM 3 car.

It was Volkeswagen not Opel, and the guy that finished 2nd in the championship (ahead of Max) had that same underpowered VW engine you speak about. Try another excuse maybe ?

The point is the same for both guys. Volkswagen wasn't up to mark with Mercedes and required good driving skills to put where it belonged. Hamilton, despite having Mercedes engine at the back of both cars that he drove, could make impact only when he got the dominating machine. In 2004, Hamilton didn't finish as the best rookie, it was Frank Perera. Despite being in prema powered by Opel, Frank Perera improved from 8th in 2004 to 4th in 2005.

What ? In 2004 Hamilton was the highest placed 'rookie' in P5 (he never did any Euro F3 faces before) but didnt get the rookie cup because he competed in 2 British F3 races the year before. He then moved to Euro F3 and in his debut season finished P5 ahead of Perera who was P8 in that year. In 2005, Lewis won the championship winning 15 out of 20 races, Perera finished 4th with 0 wins.

Max finished P3, behind a car with the same engine, and behind another rookie.

[NathanOlder]

Do you have a source for that?

Even if true he still finished 3rd in the championship to Hamilton's 5th so please don't try and say Hamilton's debut season in F3 was more impressive.

I saw the races. If you don't believe me have a look yourself.

And please stop the BS about me claiming Hamiltons 5th was better than Max's 3rd. I said Lewis' pre-F1 results were better than Max's. As you said Max and Russell's pre-F1 results were better than Lewis.

Formula Renault UK 3rd & 1st
European F3 Championship 5th & 1st
GP2 World Championship 1st

vs

European F3 Championship 3rd.

Which of these is better ? Not too hard to see is it ?


No one is doubting Max's talent, and no one is not impressed with his step up to F1 from a 3rd in Euro F3, But to say his pre-F1 career was better than Lewis' is just mind-boggling.

You're trying to argue my point that like for like Verstappen was more impressive prior to entering F1, didn't Max also compete at a higher level in karting than Lewis?

1 season, 0 championships is not as impressive as 5 seasons , 3 championships. End of.

[NathanOlder]

Back on topic maybe now thats cleared up.

As for Schumachers records, when do we think the wins will fall, I think Sochi will be a Bottas win, so I feel Hamilton winning in Germany and Portugal will be when it happens.

[Wass85]

I saw the races. If you don't believe me have a look yourself.

And please stop the BS about me claiming Hamiltons 5th was better than Max's 3rd. I said Lewis' pre-F1 results were better than Max's. As you said Max and Russell's pre-F1 results were better than Lewis.

Formula Renault UK 3rd & 1st
European F3 Championship 5th & 1st
GP2 World Championship 1st

vs

European F3 Championship 3rd.

Which of these is better ? Not too hard to see is it ?


No one is doubting Max's talent, and no one is not impressed with his step up to F1 from a 3rd in Euro F3, But to say his pre-F1 career was better than Lewis' is just mind-boggling.

You're trying to argue my point that like for like Verstappen was more impressive prior to entering F1, didn't Max also compete at a higher level in karting than Lewis?

1 season, 0 championships is not as impressive as 5 seasons , 3 championships. End of.

What about karting?

[NathanOlder]

They both won pretty much everything they went in for. So both very impressive.