[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[Emag]

I dont see how much potential could Mclaren Ford have with Manual Gearbox, being 100 HP down compared to Williams Renault and of course Williams having an automatic gearbox and electronics. The difference was huge and yet Senna got 5 Wins and was a championship contender for many races in 1993. Williams Renault back then was at least 2 to 3 seconds faster than the second car who was Mclaren Ford. I don't see how Senna would be able to get 5 wins if he wasn't able to get out of the car more than what it can.

You are misunderstanding my words I guess, but a driver can never get more out of a car than what the car can offer. And the reason is quite simple. It's just a matter of the variables that make the car fast. Let's just keep it simple and say that the speed of the cars depends on:

1) Horsepower from the engine.
2) Grip from the tires.
3) Aerodynamic load.

- The engine will never give out more power than a certain peak value that is determined by its characteristics.
- A tire will never give out more grip than a certain peak value that is determined by its age and general health.
- And a car will never give out more downforce than a certain peak value that it produces when the wind and flow patterns are just right.

It is literally impossible to get more out of a car than what the car can offer.

Why was Senna so good with a car that was seemingly so bad compared to their competition?
Because Senna was consistently extracting (let's say) 90% of what his car was able to do, while the rest of the grid was getting 85% out of theirs. And another thing worth mentioning, it is also impossible for a human being to extract 100% of the available performance of a car. So, technically, even if the McLaren that Senna was driving offered much less peak performance than the Williams, by extracting more from his car than his rivals, he could cut that gap between the cars on certain occasions.

Not by getting more than the car offered, but by getting more out of the car than his rivals were getting out of theirs.

[Darth-Piekus]

How much can a 5% more offer in terms of seconds?

[Emag]

How much can a 5% more offer in terms of seconds?

Well that depends on what the 100% of a car can offer.

If for example the 100% of McLaren could give 1:20 on a particular track
And 100% of Williams could give 1:18 on that same track.

Then if Senna gets 90% out of his car, then his laptime would be : 1:28.0
If the best Williams driver got 85% out of his car, then his laptime would be : 1:29.7

So it is quite a bit actually (in the scale that I am using, I can't think of a way to measure this accurately at the moment). However if the best Williams driver also got 90% out of his car, then his laptime would be 1:25.8

[SmallSoldier]

I dont see how much potential could Mclaren Ford have with Manual Gearbox, being 100 HP down compared to Williams Renault and of course Williams having an automatic gearbox and electronics. The difference was huge and yet Senna got 5 Wins and was a championship contender for many races in 1993. Williams Renault back then was at least 2 to 3 seconds faster than the second car who was Mclaren Ford. I don't see how Senna would be able to get 5 wins if he wasn't able to get out of the car more than what it can.

You are misunderstanding my words I guess, but a driver can never get more out of a car than what the car can offer. And the reason is quite simple. It's just a matter of the variables that make the car fast. Let's just keep it simple and say that the speed of the cars depends on:

1) Horsepower from the engine.
2) Grip from the tires.
3) Aerodynamic load.

- The engine will never give out more power than a certain peak value that is determined by its characteristics.
- A tire will never give out more grip than a certain peak value that is determined by its age and general health.
- And a car will never give out more downforce than a certain peak value that it produces when the wind and flow patterns are just right.

It is literally impossible to get more out of a car than what the car can offer.

Why was Senna so good with a car that was seemingly so bad compared to their competition?
Because Senna was consistently extracting (let's say) 90% of what his car was able to do, while the rest of the grid was getting 85% out of theirs. And another thing worth mentioning, it is also impossible for a human being to extract 100% of the available performance of a car. So, technically, even if the McLaren that Senna was driving offered much less peak performance than the Williams, by extracting more from his car than his rivals, he could cut that gap between the cars on certain occasions.

Not by getting more than the car offered, but by getting more out of the car than his rivals were getting out of theirs.

Very nice post!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ThePapayaJaguar]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

[CjC]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

I agree that loosing Pat Fry wasn’t ideal but obviously he wants to be the technical ‘boss’ so having James key and Fry in the same team isn’t going to happen.
Regards to the wind sensitivity... it’s been an issue for us since last year so it’s got nothing to do with Fry.

Renault..... Renault were very fast last year at some circuits- they were faster than us at those circuits. Mclaren just need to find a few tenths to beat RICCIARDO and we will be ahead of ‘Renault’ again on performance.

It seems the optimum way to have a car with this aero set is to have an ultra slim nose. We had a slim nose last year and beat the fat noses of Renault, Racing point and Toro Rosso.
Renault, Racing Point and Red Bull have converged with Merc to the ultra slim nose this season and have marginally moved ahead of us- we were slow to make this move but Mclaren have made the first step this weekend and we should claw some laptime back. Ferrari still retain their fat nose and look where they have slipped to...

To be 2 tenths behind Ric here in Russia isn’t bad- as well if you take into consideration that Lando (ultra slim nose) claimed to not have any new tyres for Q3- so take a marginal delta off his laptime and he would have been there with RICANULT and Perez. (Not sure why he said he had no new tyres in Q3 as all Q3 runners get a fresh set of boots to at least have a decent crack at a laptime.....?

[Xero]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

Pat Fry only oversaw the operation of the factory, he got things organised. Not sure how much direct input he truly had. The wind sensitivity is down to the aero package, which I'm 100% certain Fry has no expertise on.

[search]

To be 2 tenths behind Ric here in Russia isn’t bad- as well if you take into consideration that Lando (ultra slim nose) claimed to not have any new tyres for Q3- so take a marginal delta off his laptime and he would have been there with RICANULT and Perez. (Not sure why he said he had no new tyres in Q3 as all Q3 runners get a fresh set of boots to at least have a decent crack at a laptime.....?

“I just didn’t have two sets of new tyres in the final quali and it made my life a bit more difficult" is what he said, so Norris was referring to the 1st run in Q3 there, which he did on used softs. Sainz' weren't brand new either though, as he had already used them on the Q2 outlap before the red flag. Both did their final run on new softs

[CjC]

To be 2 tenths behind Ric here in Russia isn’t bad- as well if you take into consideration that Lando (ultra slim nose) claimed to not have any new tyres for Q3- so take a marginal delta off his laptime and he would have been there with RICANULT and Perez. (Not sure why he said he had no new tyres in Q3 as all Q3 runners get a fresh set of boots to at least have a decent crack at a laptime.....?

“I just didn’t have two sets of new tyres in the final quali and it made my life a bit more difficult" is what he said, so Norris was referring to the 1st run in Q3 there, which he did on used softs. Sainz' weren't brand new either though, as he had already used them on the Q2 outlap before the red flag. Both did their final run on new softs

Yea that’s what he said
I’m always half reading what they say and never fully understanding the facts

In regard this- Lando should be the master of this- he always none of his own sets to take into Q3 and regularly relies on the extra set Pirelli supply.
Also forget the tyre delta I was on about- in this quali session on this day we are 3 tenths slower than the RICANULT

[adrianjordan]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

I'm sure I remember us being sensitive to wind last year as well.

[ThePapayaJaguar]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

I agree that loosing Pat Fry wasn’t ideal but obviously he wants to be the technical ‘boss’ so having James key and Fry in the same team isn’t going to happen.
Regards to the wind sensitivity... it’s been an issue for us since last year so it’s got nothing to do with Fry.

Renault..... Renault were very fast last year at some circuits- they were faster than us at those circuits. Mclaren just need to find a few tenths to beat RICCIARDO and we will be ahead of ‘Renault’ again on performance.

It seems the optimum way to have a car with this aero set is to have an ultra slim nose. We had a slim nose last year and beat the fat noses of Renault, Racing point and Toro Rosso.
Renault, Racing Point and Red Bull have converged with Merc to the ultra slim nose this season and have marginally moved ahead of us- we were slow to make this move but Mclaren have made the first step this weekend and we should claw some laptime back. Ferrari still retain their fat nose and look where they have slipped to...

To be 2 tenths behind Ric here in Russia isn’t bad- as well if you take into consideration that Lando (ultra slim nose) claimed to not have any new tyres for Q3- so take a marginal delta off his laptime and he would have been there with RICANULT and Perez. (Not sure why he said he had no new tyres in Q3 as all Q3 runners get a fresh set of boots to at least have a decent crack at a laptime.....?

Were we set on getting James Key and just used Pat to fill in for him last year? Or was it as you said, Pat left on his own to take a more commanding role? The wind sensitivity may have been an issue last year as well, but not to the point where the drivers complain about it every few races. I'm really hoping they do figure out how to make the new nose work. I remember last year how it just took some time to set up their updated Barcelona spec, so I'm still hopeful!

[ThePapayaJaguar]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

Pat Fry only oversaw the operation of the factory, he got things organised. Not sure how much direct input he truly had. The wind sensitivity is down to the aero package, which I'm 100% certain Fry has no expertise on.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... m/4487534/

From Motorsport: "Fry contributed to the development of the MCL34, working alongside performance director Andrea Stella".

This article also answers my question if Pat left on his own or if he was filling in for James Key. So Cjc is right, Pat stepped down because he wanted full reins.

[CjC]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

Pat Fry only oversaw the operation of the factory, he got things organised. Not sure how much direct input he truly had. The wind sensitivity is down to the aero package, which I'm 100% certain Fry has no expertise on.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... m/4487534/

From Motorsport: "Fry contributed to the development of the MCL34, working alongside performance director Andrea Stella".

This article also answers my question if Pat left on his own or if he was filling in for James Key. So Cjc is right, Pat stepped down because he wanted full reins.

But I also think there was an element of ‘filling in’ by Pat Fry as you wondered. Fry joined the team again mid to late 2018 in the knowledge that James Key was coming in or at least being poached. Once Key arrived Zak tried to keep Fry but Zak must have obviously made it clear that Key would be Fry’s boss so Fry left to seek a ‘boss’ role elsewhere.

[CjC]

I'm starting to feel that letting Pat Fry go was a mistake. Last year, we were kind on tires and this year not as much. We weren't too sensitive to wind last year either and this year we are. Hopefully, the team can get to the bottom of it. Looking at the big picture, we have had some wonderful races and are third in the constructors. I'm just hoping we can keep it that way.

I agree that loosing Pat Fry wasn’t ideal but obviously he wants to be the technical ‘boss’ so having James key and Fry in the same team isn’t going to happen.
Regards to the wind sensitivity... it’s been an issue for us since last year so it’s got nothing to do with Fry.

Renault..... Renault were very fast last year at some circuits- they were faster than us at those circuits. Mclaren just need to find a few tenths to beat RICCIARDO and we will be ahead of ‘Renault’ again on performance.

It seems the optimum way to have a car with this aero set is to have an ultra slim nose. We had a slim nose last year and beat the fat noses of Renault, Racing point and Toro Rosso.
Renault, Racing Point and Red Bull have converged with Merc to the ultra slim nose this season and have marginally moved ahead of us- we were slow to make this move but Mclaren have made the first step this weekend and we should claw some laptime back. Ferrari still retain their fat nose and look where they have slipped to...

To be 2 tenths behind Ric here in Russia isn’t bad- as well if you take into consideration that Lando (ultra slim nose) claimed to not have any new tyres for Q3- so take a marginal delta off his laptime and he would have been there with RICANULT and Perez. (Not sure why he said he had no new tyres in Q3 as all Q3 runners get a fresh set of boots to at least have a decent crack at a laptime.....?

Were we set on getting James Key and just used Pat to fill in for him last year? Or was it as you said, Pat left on his own to take a more commanding role? The wind sensitivity may have been an issue last year as well, but not to the point where the drivers complain about it every few races. I'm really hoping they do figure out how to make the new nose work. I remember last year how it just took some time to set up their updated Barcelona spec, so I'm still hopeful!

I can’t comment on how often the drivers complained about wind sensitivity last season because last season I wasn’t analysing everything the team and drivers said after Friday, Saturday and Sunday but I do remember it well that at Austin that’s where I heard them plain about the wind sensitivity.
This season I do have more time to analyse what they are saying after each session and there are more complaints about wind direction change to me.
If you remember during pre-season testing they said a few weaknesses had carried over from last years chassis- wind sensitivity must have been one of them.

I too am hopeful like you and probably every Mclaren fan that they keep the slim nose on and find a good set up with it à la Mclaren with last years Barca upgrade like you said and à la Ricanult at this years Silverstone doubleheader with their package.

[Morteza]