2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

[Mogster]

If it’s a problem (is it?) Then there needs to be a marked area for practice starts. That would seem to be obvious.

[i70q7m7ghw]

is there a room for 20 practice start spots on the 'more representative' part of the pit exit lane before it becomes dangerous in the way I tried to explain before?

if you allow 1, you must allow everyone - or again there will be complaints about stewarding

if you don't want to allow any such behavior - you write a rule (as "vague" as some claim it to be) 19 other *competitors follow it, do not get a penalty, one decides not to understand what the rule is about, ignores it thinking they'll be fine because the wording isn't as clear as they think it should have been anyway, gets a penalty, and somehow it is not their fault?
* competitor = driver + team supporting him

and where did Bottas do his practice start? the same team advised him, didn't it?

None of what you are arguing is relevant because it's not written in the rules. You might be completely right, but why isn't it written in to the rules? The stewards literally wrote the rules when they applied the penalty, read the wording of the race notes, and then read the wording of the penalty.

If the FIA didn't like what Mercedes/Hamilton did then they could have reprimanded them and updated the race notes to close the "loop hole", the race director quite often updates the race notes as the event progresses, I believe they were up to V3 at Sochi. So your argument that they had to punish them to set a precedent is flawed.

[i70q7m7ghw]

If it’s a problem (is it?) Then there needs to be a marked area for practice starts. That would seem to be obvious.

See the race notes for Mugello https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... on%206.pdf

Page 6, there's a designated practice start area. More confusingly, for practice sessions it's to the right outside of the track limits, but for race day it's at the end of the pitlane

[i70q7m7ghw]

Here's the section covering practice starts from the Mugello event notes

18) Practice starts
18.1 During each practice session, practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after the
end of the Pit Wall indicated by the yellow grid marking. Drivers wishing to carry out a practice start
should stop on the right in order to allow other cars to pass on their left. See image 1 on page 6.
18.2 During the time the pit exit is open for the race, practice starts may be carried out after the end of
the pit wall and adjacent to the orange band on the left-hand side barrier. Drivers wishing to carry
out a practice start should stop on the right in order to allow other cars to pass on their left. See
image 1 on page 6.
18.3 During these times any driver passing a car which has stopped to carry out a practice start may
cross the white line that is referred to in 19.1 below. Any driver crossing this line must move back to
the right of it as quickly as possible.
18.4 For reasons of safety and sporting equity, cars may not stop in the fast lane at any time the pit exit
is open without a justifiable reason (a practice start is not considered a justifiable reason).

And here's the section from the Sochi event notes

19) Practice starts
19.1 Practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after the pit exit lights and, for the
avoidance of doubt, this includes any time the pit exit is open for the race.
Drivers must leave adequate room on their left for another driver to pass.
19.2 For reasons of safety and sporting equity, cars may not stop in the fast lane at any time the pit exit
is open without a justifiable reason (a practice start is not considered a justifiable reason).

And then the stewards reason for the penalty

Breach of the FIA International Sporting Code Article 12.1.1 (i), failure to follow the
instructions contained in the Event Notes (v3) item 19.1, practice start location at
13:35 and Article 36.1 FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations.

The driver performed the practice start near the end, but directly in the pit exit. Art 36.1
requires drivers to use constant throttle and constant speed in the pit exit other than in
the place designated for practice starts in the Event Notes item 19.1., which is defined
as the place ”on the right hand side” after the pit exit lights (and is not part of the track
as defined by lines) which has been known to all competitors and used without
exception.

[DChemTech]

After some time to reflect on the Sochi GP and hearing some other opinions, here are my thoughts:

• That crash of Sainz highlighted how dangerous the whole necessity was for driving close to the wall to join the track.

In Soviet Russia, you do not break track limits... In Soviet Russia, track limits break you.

[Schuttelberg]

I wanted to wait for a day before posting so that it would be a discussion with someone and not an argument.

I have seen a lot of things written here and in other places and I thought I should put my two cents down. I personally feel that the points given on his license are justified. I think it was unsafe and its Hamilton driving the car although it is 100% a team error. I also think that the 5+5 second penalty is absolutely utterly pathetic. Hamilton should not have had any penalty whatsoever that interfered with his race result. Also, all the people criticising him for voicing his opinion on the matter are the first people to criticise a driver for not having a personality and being PR robots.

To surmise, it's an absolutely bullish!t penalty, one which interfered with the race result and I honestly don't consider it as anything but manipulating the race result and I damn sure am proud of Hamilton for making his feelings absolutely well known. He clearly is very very moved by this equality drive for black people this year and he's channeling that emotion into his performances. I think he at the moment feels (connecting his history of being treated unfairly and racially) that in a very similar way people are trying to stagger his growth or impede him because of his ethnicity. It's just my feeling on whatever he's said and my personal judgement about the penalty has nothing to do with all this. It's exactly this sort of nonsense, Canada 19, Mexico 16 which make a Grand Prix all about the stewards and not the drivers/teams. It's bulls!t!

[jz11]

is there a room for 20 practice start spots on the 'more representative' part of the pit exit lane before it becomes dangerous in the way I tried to explain before?

if you allow 1, you must allow everyone - or again there will be complaints about stewarding

if you don't want to allow any such behavior - you write a rule (as "vague" as some claim it to be) 19 other *competitors follow it, do not get a penalty, one decides not to understand what the rule is about, ignores it thinking they'll be fine because the wording isn't as clear as they think it should have been anyway, gets a penalty, and somehow it is not their fault?
* competitor = driver + team supporting him

and where did Bottas do his practice start? the same team advised him, didn't it?

None of what you are arguing is relevant because it's not written in the rules. You might be completely right, but why isn't it written in to the rules? The stewards literally wrote the rules when they applied the penalty, read the wording of the race notes, and then read the wording of the penalty.

If the FIA didn't like what Mercedes/Hamilton did then they could have reprimanded them and updated the race notes to close the "loop hole", the race director quite often updates the race notes as the event progresses, I believe they were up to V3 at Sochi. So your argument that they had to punish them to set a precedent is flawed.

I don't know why they worded the 19.1 like that, but I said it before - it is clear to me why the note exists and what behavior it tries to prevent in the name of safety and equal conditions for all competitors

what Lewis and his RE did IMO goes against the spirit of that rule, hence stewards acting on it

and it is never easy to write rules when the people you're writing them for very actively will try to exploit every last bit of gray area the wording provides, a sentence would turn into couple pages long essay if you tried to include every little detail, and even then it wouldn't be enough

maybe the stewards don't have the athority, means or time to place signs or paint lines on the track to define practice start area in Sochi when there are no other suitable markers there on the track, but the idea of the rule is clear to me, and as I said previously - it is a simple case of going over to them to clarify such things, Hamiltons supporting people thought otherwise and got punished for that

I don't think there is anything more I can add to this, see you all at the next one

[SiLo]

Personally I think the team should have just been fined, the loophole closed, and that be the end of it. I think Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to be a bit peeved about the penalty.

[notsofast]

If other sports are capable of writing unambiguous rules, F1 should be able to as well. F1 should invite a non-motorsport expert to be one of the stewards at each race, so that F1 can learn what it means to read and apply the rules as written. How about a tennis official as a steward at the next race?

[Big Tea]

Personally I think the team should have just been fined, the loophole closed, and that be the end of it. I think Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to be a bit peeved about the penalty.

The thing about in race time penalties is that they are irreversible. It is only when a 100% slam dunk 'yes he did it' offence is committed that it should be used. If it is not 100%, it can easily be transferred to the next race.

To me, this was 'grey' at worst and could easily have been scrutinised later and penalties or points applied for the next race when the rule had been clarified.

A 10 second penalty or a 10 place grid drop carried over has a week to be discussed rather than be irreversible

[SiLo]

Personally I think the team should have just been fined, the loophole closed, and that be the end of it. I think Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to be a bit peeved about the penalty.

The thing about in race time penalties is that they are irreversible. It is only when a 100% slam dunk 'yes he did it' offence is committed that it should be used. If it is not 100%, it can easily be transferred to the next race.

To me, this was 'grey' at worst and could easily have been scrutinised later and penalties or points applied for the next race when the rule had been clarified.

A 10 second penalty or a 10 place grid drop carried over has a week to be discussed rather than be irreversible

"Get out of here with your sensible suggestions, I'm busy leaking our decision to the press in so I could potentially have an impact on betting and even the race outcome."
~The Stewards, probably

[jz11]

Personally I think the team should have just been fined, the loophole closed, and that be the end of it. I think Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to be a bit peeved about the penalty.

the aim of doing those starts where he did is to get better feel of how the clutch bites on a non-rubbered-in surface, it is easier to get wheel spin if practices before on a very grippy surface, which is why he didn't do it where the rest did, this gives a potential and quite substantial racing advantage

a fine would then mean that you basically bought some extra performance at little (relative) cost

hence stewards deciding on in race penalty, subtracting the added points was the right move IMO

[SiLo]

Personally I think the team should have just been fined, the loophole closed, and that be the end of it. I think Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to be a bit peeved about the penalty.

the aim of doing those starts where he did is to get better feel of how the clutch bites on a non-rubbered-in surface, it is easier to get wheel spin if practices before on a very grippy surface, which is why he didn't do it where the rest did, this gives a potential and quite substantial racing advantage

a fine would then mean that you basically bought some extra performance at little (relative) cost

hence stewards deciding on in race penalty, subtracting the added points was the right move IMO

The way the rules are written he didn't break them though. The stewards only defined the actual area when they awarded the penalty. Incredible.

[El Scorchio]

Personally I think the team should have just been fined, the loophole closed, and that be the end of it. I think Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to be a bit peeved about the penalty.

Hamilton especially, seen as he asked the team if it was OK to do so and they said yes. As far as he was concerned he did everything by the book and to get hit with a double penalty and have the race taken away from him is a bit crazy. The stewards needed a bit of perspective and the punishment really didn't fit the crime.

I feel a lot about this the way I did about the Haas cars when they got pinged for those radio transmissions and pitting on a formation lap. That was a transgression of the rules as they are written but so what? It really just amounted to a strategy change and wasn't a big deal until the stewards got involved. That one wasn't even on any sort of safety grounds. It just felt like semantics to me.

[V12-POWER]

After some time to reflect on the Sochi GP and hearing some other opinions, here are my thoughts:

• Nice job by Bottas. He probably would have won anyway, even without the penalty for Lewis due to him on the better tire in the first stint
• Hamilton shouldn't be that down. Given he likely wouldn't have won, his loss with the penalty only cost him another 3 points (15 instead of 18).
• Penalty slightly annoying. Apparently, he would have had 2+2 points on his license giving him a race ban, then that got changed to 1+1 to in the end zero after they reviewed information that they already had. Given they had plenty of time to review the incident before the race, they waited until during the race. Obviously, a grid penalty would have been very different than handing out a penalty during the race. It just feels a bit "orchestrated" IMO. Either way, not very professional. I expect more of F1.
• That crash of Sainz highlighted how dangerous the whole necessity was for driving close to the wall to join the track.
• Overall, I felt this race had far too much unnecessary "micro management" (penalty for Riccardo).
• Q2 was the best part of the weekend. I would have loved to see though how the different strategies would have worked out (Hamilton on pole on softs, Bottas/Verstappen on medium)
• Great performance by Perez, Riccardo, Ocon and Leclerc

A LOT of stuff in F1 seems orchestrated, somehow, this forum, only screams “injustice!” when it doesn’t benefit Mercedes/Hamilton

there’s a reason why any drama involving Lewis/Mercedes always end up being the longest threads