2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

[Just_a_fan]

what Lewis and his RE did IMO goes against the spirit of that rule, hence stewards acting on it

and it is never easy to write rules when the people you're writing them for very actively will try to exploit every last bit of gray area the wording provides, a sentence would turn into couple pages long essay if you tried to include every little detail, and even then it wouldn't be enough

maybe the stewards don't have the athority, means or time to place signs or paint lines on the track to define practice start area in Sochi when there are no other suitable markers there on the track, but the idea of the rule is clear to me, and as I said previously - it is a simple case of going over to them to clarify such things, Hamiltons supporting people thought otherwise and got punished for that

I don't think there is anything more I can add to this, see you all at the next one

A. There is no such thing as "spirit of the rules". There are the rules and actions are either in accordance with them or they are not. Hamilton's actions were in accordance with the rule as it was written. That's it.

B. The stewards / race director are fully entitled to require changes to be made to a track. It happens all the time with various corners having kerbs added or removed, bollards placed or removed etc.

C. Writing a rule for this situation is absolutely the simplest thing to do:

Practice starts must only be carried out in the area designated for them. The area designated for practice starts is between the marker boards stating "practice start area". No practice starts may be undertaken anywhere before the first board or after the second board. Cars carrying out practice starts must be positioned to right hand side of the lane so that another car can freely pass to the left without having to cross the white line.

This is entirely unambiguous. It designates a start location and an end location for starts to be practised. It does not need pages of words.

The simple reality is that the race director messed up. He then compounded that by flagging a situation to the stewards who then issued an erroneous penalty based on his guidance. This is a race director who is known for wanting to improve "the show". Having Hamilton penalised during the race was an attempt to spice up the race - known for being hugely boring unless there is a crash.

[nzjrs]

Having Hamilton penalised during the race was an attempt to spice up the race - known for being hugely boring unless there is a crash.

I think that's a stretch. I think this is just Hanlon's razor - incompotence instead of malice.

[Just_a_fan]

Look Hamilton failed to follow a provision in the event notes. There is nothing debatable there.

Straight up incorrect.

[Just_a_fan]

....The Event Notes for Sochi are not as specific, I think it was a fair call from Mercedes that what was allowed at previous events would be allowed here since the rules don't specifically exlcude it.

Your interpretations get more and more crazy. Even Andrew Shovlin clearly said, that the penalty was expected once they saw where Hamilton was doing the practice start. The problem was, that the race engineer thought he moves just a bit further up. And not right into the pit exit...
I am completely surprised...stopping where Hamilton stopped is forbidden on every track.No idea why he did it. You always need to move to the side, away from the fast lane and certainly not somewhere on the track. 'The only thing to argue is if he did it in the fast lane (breach of 19.2) or if he stopped on the track (breach like mentioned by the stewards), because the fast lane is not really limited.

The fast lane is anywhere after the pit exit line.

No. The fast lane is the lane immediately behind the pitwall within the pits and is separated from the rest of the pits by a big line. The fast lane is the bit where you can't stop and you can't work on a car.

After the pit exit line, it's just "the track".

[Just_a_fan]

So, if they had made a decision, confident enough to issue it (unofficially) to the press, why was it 10 min later when the team knew? There could well have been a safety car in that time, or even a pit stop required for puncture etc? that smells a bit of waiting for the biggest impact.

You have a double 5 second penalty, but we knew 10 min ago. Hmmm.

If the leak did happen, and the timeline can be proven then this is far from over for Mika and the Stewards/FIA. If its all true, I'd find it hard to believe some form of legal action doesn't occur as that's a clear case of discrimination/bias against a competitor.

If betting outlets can show that they received bets on Bottas wining the race during that 10 minutes, then there could be criminal charges against Salo. If the FIA don't rescind his accreditation/license then there should be a public outcry.

This isn't about the team / driver getting a penalty - this is about potentially illegal activity. The FIA must clamp down on it hard and be seen to be doing so too.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Having Hamilton penalised during the race was an attempt to spice up the race - known for being hugely boring unless there is a crash.

I think that's a stretch. I think this is just Hanlon's razor - incompotence instead of malice.

I agree.
Had the FIA been competent and consistent in the last few years this penalty could have been seen as designed to add some excitement. The trouble is they have been an utterly incompetent and highly dysfunctional organization ever since Charlie's demise.

[maxxer]

Masi's responds to the f2 crash and fire :

https://www.motorsport.com/fia-f2/news/ ... n=widget-2

"They got there actually, relatively quickly, the challenge was that it was quite a distance between two marshal posts where the incident occurred,” Masi said.

[Phil]

This isn't about the team / driver getting a penalty - this is about potentially illegal activity. The FIA must clamp down on it hard and be seen to be doing so too.

Is there enough "smoke" regarding this? I mean, I can tell that heaps of people are discussing it in this very topic - but outside of it, I have seen little by the "big publications" picking up on it or even caring.

As unfortunate as it may be, I really can't see any consequences or investigation coming. It probably would be embarrassing too, hence, better to just sweep it under the rug. Hamilton is also far enough in the standings for it to not matter - and given there are also no lasting points on the license, I don't see Mercedes or Hamilton pursuing it further. Easier to just move on, I guess...

[SiLo]

Your interpretations get more and more crazy. Even Andrew Shovlin clearly said, that the penalty was expected once they saw where Hamilton was doing the practice start. The problem was, that the race engineer thought he moves just a bit further up. And not right into the pit exit...
I am completely surprised...stopping where Hamilton stopped is forbidden on every track.No idea why he did it. You always need to move to the side, away from the fast lane and certainly not somewhere on the track. 'The only thing to argue is if he did it in the fast lane (breach of 19.2) or if he stopped on the track (breach like mentioned by the stewards), because the fast lane is not really limited.

The fast lane is anywhere after the pit exit line.

No. The fast lane is the lane immediately behind the pitwall within the pits and is separated from the rest of the pits by a big line. The fast lane is the bit where you can't stop and you can't work on a car.

After the pit exit line, it's just "the track".

So it's the bit to the right of the fast lane that is like, not actual track? I'm looking on google maps and there is like a triangle shape area there. Is that it?

[dans79]

Masi's responds to the f2 crash and fire :

https://www.motorsport.com/fia-f2/news/ ... n=widget-2

"They got there actually, relatively quickly, the challenge was that it was quite a distance between two marshal posts where the incident occurred,” Masi said.

“So the fireman obviously were at marshal posts that were both on the side of the incident. I wouldn't want to be running with a fire extinguisher for the best part of 150-odd metres or whatever.

Umm thats complete garbage! in the highlights video you can see several marshals just standing in the distance ~30 seconds after the impact.

https://f1tv.formula1.com/en/episode/f2 ... ussia-2020

[JamesS]

He drove to the end of the pit wall, this is a location specified in the Event Notes for many other tracks, so your assertion that "stopping where Hamilton stopped is forbidden on every track" is not correct. Please read the Event Notes I have posted before commenting further. Also, he was only penalised for breaching 19.1, read the stewards notes, 19.2 was not mentioned as being breached.

Late to the party, which page did you post the race notes on?

All here viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29392&p=930942#p930942

EDIT: All original notes can be found here: https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2020-1059

Cheers.

Firstly I think the penalty was generally unfair/over the top, applying an in race penalty for something that happened before the race got going doesn't seem right, if need be investigate after the race and apply penalties after.

19.1 doesn't very specifically detail the location where drivers can do a practice start, it doesn't matter to me if "that's where its always been done", you have specific rules to avoid any other interpretation

19.2 is possibly the section that applies to Lewis in this case, he drove further down in to the fast lane, stopped and then started again... BUT it is ambiguous where you can do a practice start due to the non specific wording in 19.1, therefore unfair IMO to apply a penalty in this case, speak to the driver afterwards and clarify for the next race. Ensure each track has a specific marker designating the exact spot and the exact spot only you are authorised to do practice starts.

[Just_a_fan]

The fast lane is anywhere after the pit exit line.

No. The fast lane is the lane immediately behind the pitwall within the pits and is separated from the rest of the pits by a big line. The fast lane is the bit where you can't stop and you can't work on a car.

After the pit exit line, it's just "the track".

So it's the bit to the right of the fast lane that is like, not actual track? I'm looking on google maps and there is like a triangle shape area there. Is that it?

The bit that is usually used is here:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2 ... 39.9674845
It's where the safety car sits during the race.

Hamilton went further down near the end:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2 ... 39.9641672
Which is still in the pitlane exit as defined by the race director's notes. Hence it was still legal. It was different, however. Doing it there was at least safer than elsewhere other than the usual spot - he made sure there was plenty of room to his left, as can be seen. The rules allow a driver to cross the line on to the track to go around a car in that location so everything was within the rules. Until Masi decided to get involved, of course.

[astralx]

M.Surer thinks penalty for Hamilton to lenient https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... nach-milde

[jz11]

A. There is no such thing as "spirit of the rules". There are the rules and actions are either in accordance with them or they are not. Hamilton's actions were in accordance with the rule as it was written. That's it.

So what you're saying is that the idea behind the rule (what I referred to as "spirit of the rule") goes away immediately as soon as the ink dries? I've heard that from lawyers and people trying to bend said rules intentionally disregarding that there is any sort of rational thought why the rule was written in the first place

I don't dispute or even defend the way those 19.1 and 19.2 are written, I think I even said - they could have done it better, but I also said I know why the note is there at all, and yet again - 19 others also did, 1 did not

Hamilton went further down near the end:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2 ... 39.9641672
Which is still in the pitlane exit as defined by the race director's notes. Hence it was still legal. It was different, however. Doing it there was at least safer than elsewhere other than the usual spot - he made sure there was plenty of room to his left, as can be seen. The rules allow a driver to cross the line on to the track to go around a car in that location so everything was within the rules. Until Masi decided to get involved, of course.

can you point out on your map where the pit speed limiter ends and speculate to average speed F1 would be going by the stationary Hamilton in the point you indicated, not saying anyone actually passed him there, but just speculate... and then have a ground look at that place in google maps and consider that the drivers point of view from around half a meter above the ground and that his right/left is totally obscured by the barriers

and then tell me there is no danger at all with the spot he used for his practice start

[Mattchu]

I understand people want to discuss the practise start procedure...but come on! It`s done and dusted now, some people have one view, others have another. The whole topic seems to be just going round in circles.

What I found rather odd was that you could go off at turn 2 then floor it through some bollards and rejoin the track at a much higher speed than those who took the corner legitimately, although as seen with Carlos Sainz, a slight misjudgement means you smack into a concrete wall and it`s race over.
How does a modern day track have such an odd, potentially dangerous area in this day and age! This part of the track will hopefully be changed for next year.

Good solid drives from Bottas, Max, Lewis, Dan and Perez, I also thought Kvyat did pretty good in his home Grand Prix. Lots thought this would a boring procession and where in the most proved right, the top 5 seemed quite happy just driving around to a delta keeping the gap infront and behind pretty steady.