2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

[maxxer]

yes, Diesel, I didn't notice how very similar they are:
Monza:
length of the area less than 100m, straight line, good visibility, racing line on the other side of the track
Sochi:
Ham stopped probably around 300m after the pits, after a blind right hander, with racing line close to middle of the track(?)

almost identical situation there, I can't believe I didn't realize that before...
couple pics to illustrate how they are basically the same thing
https://i.imgur.com/dV2sM06.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z9Bn7M9.png

not very clear what your point is here but ok

[dans79]

almost identical situation there, I can't believe I didn't realize that before...

As I said earlier go look at Brazil.....

[Racer X]

Did anyone notice Carlos Sainz and his brilliant performance. Hes starting to look more and more like a Ferrari driver'.

[Phil]

How visible the area was where Hamilton did his starts is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it said (and didnt) say in the directors notes.

[basti313]

No, they do not do it like this on other tracks. Mugello is the best example...you have a big triangle area where the kart track ends. There is the place for practice starts, it is well off the track. In Sotchi, there is no triangle, just a wall. Hamilton stopped right in the track, where others pass with 200km/h+ when coming from the intended test start area at the pit lights.

Have you read the Event Notes notes for Monza? It describes what Hamilton did at Sochi, and if you look at pictures of the circuit, you can see the location is similar.

18) Practice starts
18.1 During each free practice session, practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after
the end of the Pit Wall but before the first dotted white line across the pit exit. Drivers wishing to carry
out a practice start should stop on the right in order to allow other cars to pass on their left.
18.2 During the time the pit exit is open for the race, practice starts may be carried out after the end of
the pit wall but before the second dotted white line across the pit exit. Drivers wishing to carry out a
practice start should stop on the right in order to allow other cars to pass on their left.
18.3 During these times any driver passing a car which has stopped to carry out a practice start may
cross the white line that is referred to in 19.1 below. Any driver crossing this line must move back to
the right of it as quickly as possible.
18.4 For reasons of safety and sporting equity, cars may not stop in the fast lane at any time the pit exit
is open without a justifiable reason (a practice start is not considered a justifiable reason).

Similar???? As indicated: In Monza the spot is visible when you come with the pit lane limiter. In Sotchi you see the car where Ham did his practice starts when you arrive with 200km/h+ out of a blind corner. This is why it was allowed in Monza and not explicitly allowed to "stop on track" in Sotchi.

[basti313]

How visible the area was where Hamilton did his starts is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it said (and didnt) say in the directors notes.

Exactly.And these did not say it is allowed to stop there.

[Just_a_fan]

How visible the area was where Hamilton did his starts is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it said (and didnt) say in the directors notes.

Exactly.And these did not say it is allowed to stop there.

The notes said he was allowed to stop there. That's the whole point! The notes defined the area as being the full length of the pit exit lane. He was in the pit exit lane, ergo, he was allowed to use that part of the lane.

[jz11]

How visible the area was where Hamilton did his starts is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it said (and didnt) say in the directors notes.

is that you defense while causing a potentially dangerous situation? all the experience and common sense they had and you need a piece of paper to tell you where it is safe and not to stop on a race track? that is excluding the option of clearing the issue with stewards before hand by your race engineer

Speaking of Brazil, race notes are also not exactly crystal clear about the spot where you can stop - "pit exit", but the big difference is marshals there with white flags to warn coming cars if someone is stationary there, did you see any marshals in Sochi there in those places? and if you didn't, what does that tell you?

I'm not arguing about the technical legality of his actions, I'm arguing the safety aspect of it, and potential race benefit, yes, it was potentially dangerous to stop there, and yes, there is a potential racing benefit from performing practice start there, hence the in race penalty and not some finger waving and monetary penalty, which a team like Mercedes wouldn't even blink at

and I only saw him stopping once, I don't even know where the second place he stopped was, but I'm guessing it was something similar, else they wouldn't apply the second penalty

[Just_a_fan]

What will happen is that there will be a defined area for practice starts from now on. Masi will write in his notes exactly where they are allowed to do practice starts at each GP going forward.

It's interesting that Hamilton, like Schumacher, has caused rules to be written more clearly / changed. Schumacher's win in the pit lane, for example, changed the rules. Hamilton staying in the car when it was lifted back on to the track, or his long slow weave to break a tow both caused rules to be changed/rewritten. This practice start issue will do likewise.

The top drivers leave a mark on the sport greater than their own race/title records. They get written in to the rule book.

[Phil]

is that you defense while causing a potentially dangerous situation? all the experience and common sense they had and you need a piece of paper to tell you where it is safe and not to stop on a race track?

If common-sense was adequate, we wouldn't need any notes or rules at all. Common-sense dictates that that is why we have these notes in the first place. You can argue until the day turns black, but it still won't change the fact that this situation originated out of mistake made by the director himself who failed to clarify what he expected of the drivers.

Worse even, his failing led to the race being manipulated with a in-race penalty for something that took place before the race.

There have been numerous instances where drivers have operated in the grey areas of the regulations - another example would be when Vettel exploited fine nuances of the rules in regards to his starting box at Shanghai a few years ago and as expected, he didn't get fined or penalized, but they did later clarify the written rule:

[jz11]

stopping at a completely blind corner exit where cars behind you may come at 150-200km/h is gray area to you Phil?

clearly my English skills are too weak to convey what I think about this, and I don't think I'll be able to debate this any longer in a way I won't regret later and probably get a message from one or more moderators here afterwards, so I'll just stop here

[nzjrs]

What's interesting in this discussion is the difference in people's familiarity/intuitions about how regulations should be written.

One comparison I think is apt is that engineers are trained or intuit 'defensive thinking', which is widget X should be protected against failure mode Y. However, a field like computer security is trained to think adversarially - is widget X protected against a motivated attacker exploiting Y. After working with some security folks I've noticed this distinction and find it quite deeply held/trained.

(this is not a comment on Hamilton, but a suggestion for people to try and wear the other hat and think through how regulations could be written if a person is more familiar with one style of analytic thinking as compared to the other)

[Phil]

stopping at a completely blind corner exit where cars behind you may come at 150-200km/h is gray area to you Phil?

Are you purposely avoiding the discussion? If it is dangerous or not, is a different topic. Racing cars at high speeds is dangerous, period. Racing drivers are not tasked to think about what is "safe" or isn't. They race and participate within the confines of what the rules allow.

I could well argue that it might be more dangerous than in the area of what the race director had intended, but how much more dangerous is open to debate (and not relevant to what people here are discussing, namely that for all intends and purpose, the race director failed to make it unambiguously clear which area he intended to be used) - for one it was outside the track, so he wasn't impeding anyone. And people coming around that bend are on the left at that point, not the far end right where Hamilton was situated. Or are you going to argue next that the pit exit was dangerous as well (after all, a blind corner exit, ignoring the white line)? Then what? Where will that get this discussion?

It's not relevant.

[basti313]

How visible the area was where Hamilton did his starts is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it said (and didnt) say in the directors notes.

Exactly.And these did not say it is allowed to stop there.

The notes said he was allowed to stop there. That's the whole point! The notes defined the area as being the full length of the pit exit lane. He was in the pit exit lane, ergo, he was allowed to use that part of the lane.

No they did not. The note did not allow to stop on track. It even had the clarification 19.2, that you are not even allowed to stop and wait for a free spot next to the track in the fast lane, something which happened in the past.

[i70q7m7ghw]

stopping at a completely blind corner exit where cars behind you may come at 150-200km/h is gray area to you Phil?

clearly my English skills are too weak to convey what I think about this, and I don't think I'll be able to debate this any longer in a way I won't regret later and probably get a message from one or more moderators here afterwards, so I'll just stop here

It's not blind, go watch someone exit the pits, as they round the bend exiting the pits they would have seen Hamilton parked beyond the pit wall on the right, with several car widths to his left to pass. You have to turn left after the pit wall otherwise you crash in to the wall on the right. So far you've claimed it was a sporting advantage, it's unsafe, and now it's a blind corner. Is there anything else you'd like to makeup that hasn't been noted by an official source?

EDIT: Look how blind it is, can't even see those cars ahead