2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

[JamesS]

Exactly.And these did not say it is allowed to stop there.

The notes said he was allowed to stop there. That's the whole point! The notes defined the area as being the full length of the pit exit lane. He was in the pit exit lane, ergo, he was allowed to use that part of the lane.

No they did not. The note did not allow to stop on track. It even had the clarification 19.2, that you are not even allowed to stop and wait for a free spot next to the track in the fast lane, something which happened in the past.

19.2 is irrelevant, because 19.1 does not specifically outline the location.

[i70q7m7ghw]

No they did not. The note did not allow to stop on track. It even had the clarification 19.2, that you are not even allowed to stop and wait for a free spot next to the track in the fast lane, something which happened in the past.

19.2 refers to stopping in the fast lane, the fast lane is between the pit entry line and the pit exit line on the left hand side of the pit lane, running along the pit wall. Hamilton stopped beyond the pit exit line as denoted in 19.1, and therefore was not in the fast lane. Read the notes on the penalty issued, they are only applying 19.1, not 19.2.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Similar???? As indicated: In Monza the spot is visible when you come with the pit lane limiter. In Sotchi you see the car where Ham did his practice starts when you arrive with 200km/h+ out of a blind corner. This is why it was allowed in Monza and not explicitly allowed to "stop on track" in Sotchi.

Can you share the link to the race director notes that explain this?

[jz11]

Are you purposely avoiding the discussion?

yes, because I ran out of polite and reasonable language to express my opinion about the matter

[basti313]

No they did not. The note did not allow to stop on track. It even had the clarification 19.2, that you are not even allowed to stop and wait for a free spot next to the track in the fast lane, something which happened in the past.

19.2 refers to stopping in the fast lane, the fast lane is between the pit entry line and the pit exit line on the left hand side of the pit lane, running along the pit wall. Hamilton stopped beyond the pit exit line as denoted in 19.1, and therefore was not in the fast lane. Read the notes on the penalty issued, they are only applying 19.1, not 19.2.

No, the fast lane is not defined like this. Actually there is not even an official rule where it ends or starts. But it does not matter, as the fine was for stopping on track. And this has nothing to do with 19.1 or 19.2.

You are looking not for a grey area...what you claim is completely against common sense, and this is exactly what Shov was saying in the interview. They wanted to exploit a little bit of a grey area, most probably assuming there is space. But as there is a 200m wall, it went to clearly black.

[Just_a_fan]

Exactly.And these did not say it is allowed to stop there.

The notes said he was allowed to stop there. That's the whole point! The notes defined the area as being the full length of the pit exit lane. He was in the pit exit lane, ergo, he was allowed to use that part of the lane.

No they did not. The note did not allow to stop on track. It even had the clarification 19.2, that you are not even allowed to stop and wait for a free spot next to the track in the fast lane, something which happened in the past.

In that case, all practice starts were illegal and all should have been penalised.

There was no designated spot for practice starts. They were allowed in the pit lane exit lane. All drivers complied with those requirements, including Hamilton. That Hamilton did his in a different place did not make it illegal.

You can't add feeling/spirit/common sense etc. to the situation. The rules are all that matters when determining illegality. As the rules were written, Hamilton did nothing wrong. It really is that simple.

[bosyber]

Did anyone post this article (Motorlat based on Spa Event notes). According to those notes/the article, at Spa:
...
Would this be better in a different thread about the FIA being consistent/not yet again (how often have we had this discussion in the last 30 years, sigh - after 2008 we went off having 1 steward that went to all races, introduced to get the rulings more consistent, but with Spa and other things that year being seen as a Mosley stooge who was anti McLaren/Hamilton, now I see people asking for such a steward again, presumably w/o recalling, or just trusting Todt to be more impartial?! All very F1 with the revolving door rules)

Agree, I think it needs its own thread. There are too many things to discuss that aren't related to this specific race.

Moved it to this thread. Would suggest moving other talk around stewarding there too, as there's also other bits to talk about the race, like contrasting Kvyat and Gasly (though that too is about regulations, with Gasly losing out due to being on softs in Q3, Kvyat starting 10th after Albon gearbox penalty, on fresh tyres because he didn''t progress from Q2)

[i70q7m7ghw]

No, the fast lane is not defined like this. Actually there is not even an official rule where it ends or starts. But it does not matter, as the fine was for stopping on track. And this has nothing to do with 19.1 or 19.2.

It's drawn on the pitlane map in the event notes, so yes it is defined like that.

[Wynters]

and I only saw him stopping once, I don't even know where the second place he stopped was, but I'm guessing it was something similar, else they wouldn't apply the second penalty

The Stewards indicate where he carried out the second start in their notification of the incident. It might be worth reading those documents before arguing about them for multiple pages?

[Wynters]

In Sotchi you see the car where Ham did his practice starts when you arrive with 200km/h+ out of a blind corner. This is why it was allowed in Monza and not explicitly allowed to "stop on track" in Sotchi.

Art 36.1 requires drivers to use constant throttle and constant speed in the pit exit. This was during the reconnaissance laps session. Which cars were coming out of the blind corner at 200km/h+?

No, the fast lane is not defined like this. Actually there is not even an official rule where it ends or starts. But it does not matter, as the fine was for stopping on track. And this has nothing to do with 19.1 or 19.2.

The fine wasn't for stopping on track. The FIA notifications clearly list the penalty as being for "Practice start violation...in the pit exit"

[Just_a_fan]

The problem is highlighted by Palmer's article on the race. He also doesn't understand the rules:

The regulations stated that drivers must do practice starts on the right after the pit-lane exit lights. Mercedes argued that there was no designated spot - in terms of anything delineated by markings - but they know the rules define a specific place, and everyone else managed to use it.

and

The fact is, though, that Hamilton wanted to do a practice start there, rather than in the designated practice start box,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54340678

He says the rules define a specific place but, as has already been shown, the rules do no such thing.

[NathanOlder]

and I only saw him stopping once, I don't even know where the second place he stopped was, but I'm guessing it was something similar, else they wouldn't apply the second penalty

The Stewards indicate where he carried out the second start in their notification of the incident. It might be worth reading those documents before arguing about them for multiple pages?

[dans79]

One comparison I think is apt is that engineers are trained or intuit 'defensive thinking', which is widget X should be protected against failure mode Y. However, a field like computer security is trained to think adversarially - is widget X protected against a motivated attacker exploiting Y. After working with some security folks I've noticed this distinction and find it quite deeply heqld/trained.

I was trained as a physicist/developer, basically a dual degree.

One of my favorite CS professor's said you should write code to handle two types of users. A genius who is intentionally trying to break it, and an idiot who could break it because they have no idea what they're doing. he said if you cover those two you'll cover everyone in between.

The FIA is naive, and always seems to assume that the drivers and teams are intelligent and have completely benign intentions.

[basti313]

No, the fast lane is not defined like this. Actually there is not even an official rule where it ends or starts. But it does not matter, as the fine was for stopping on track. And this has nothing to do with 19.1 or 19.2.

It's drawn on the pitlane map in the event notes, so yes it is defined like that.

No, there is no end indicated.

[basti313]

In Sotchi you see the car where Ham did his practice starts when you arrive with 200km/h+ out of a blind corner. This is why it was allowed in Monza and not explicitly allowed to "stop on track" in Sotchi.

Art 36.1 requires drivers to use constant throttle and constant speed in the pit exit. This was during the reconnaissance laps session. Which cars were coming out of the blind corner at 200km/h+?

No, the fast lane is not defined like this. Actually there is not even an official rule where it ends or starts. But it does not matter, as the fine was for stopping on track. And this has nothing to do with 19.1 or 19.2.

The fine wasn't for stopping on track. The FIA notifications clearly list the penalty as being for "Practice start violation...in the pit exit"

In the text they write the "stopping on track" article.