[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[ispano6]

Does Redbull truly build identical cars?

Or is the difference between Max and Albon in skill truly that great?

It's so sad to see him struggle to pass a Williams I don't care how good George is. He shouldn't struggle against a Williams in a Redbull.

I just don't understand how Albon is so slow...

Max likely gets upgrades first, Albon had a gearbox change and started 15th and fell back due to Sainz crashing. If he started 10th he would have been ahead of Leclerc and taking off the softs at the beginning slowed him down.

Mechanics and engineers on his side of the garage also aren't the same, likely the other side more in tune with Max and what he wants balance wise.

[Sieper]

This track is difficult for the RBR. In such tracks the difference is greater between Max and Albon. Also, you mustn’t underestimate how difficult overtaking is. Russell was stuck behing Latifi very long as well, just to name an example.

[godlameroso]

The cold may mean the hardest compound may not work at all. Just not possible to build enough heat on the fronts.

The car is tailored to Verstappen, only he can drive like himself. Albon has to adapt which is not easy, considering how much conditioning goes into one's own driving style. It is not easy to undo.

So he struggles more, he can't drive around the bad habits of the car like Verstappen can. The more the track exposes those bad habits, the more he struggles.

[Sieper]

The car is built for speed foremost. Max has also stated many times that if they find something that increases speed but also makes it difficult he will still prefer that. If they find something that increases speed and makes it easier to drive the car then that is much better.

[bosyber]

The car is built for speed foremost. Max has also stated many times that if they find something that increases speed but also makes it difficult he will still prefer that. If they find something that increases speed and makes it easier to drive the car then that is much better.

Bit OT, but just last weekend I read: racefans - Ricciardo saying last year at Sochi Renault was easy to drive but slow, so now they made it harder to driver, but faster, different car/driver, but exactly as you say.

Ricciardo also mentioned it means he had to adapt and work more, but definitely you'd expect any decent racing driver will make that choice (though the limit to that is when it becomes so inconsistent that you cannot drive it - which is where Albon probably found himself this weekend again)

[etusch]

The car is built for speed foremost. Max has also stated many times that if they find something that increases speed but also makes it difficult he will still prefer that. If they find something that increases speed and makes it easier to drive the car then that is much better.

Bit OT, but just last weekend I read: racefans - Ricciardo saying last year at Sochi Renault was easy to drive but slow, so now they made it harder to driver, but faster, different car/driver, but exactly as you say.

Ricciardo also mentioned it means he had to adapt and work more, but definitely you'd expect any decent racing driver will make that choice (though the limit to that is when it becomes so inconsistent that you cannot drive it - which is where Albon probably found himself this weekend again)

I can't remember if he were Webber or another one was talking about Webber, whoever he was, he was saying about driver, whoever he is, that "he must find a race winning car seat as soon as possible otherwise he used to slow cars and when he get a good car finally he can not drive it" Something like that.

[Manoah2u]

I think one should concider it in the extreme to an old lamborghini countach or perhaps a Ferrari F40, and a slightly slower car which has T/C, ABS, etc etc.
Obiously, if you start driving the slightly slower car with all the aids, you're less likely to go over the limit, and 'push' the car, and believe you can't do better and the car can't go faster.
then you step into that countach or F40, which is faster, but much more difficult to drive, and because you been driving t/c abs etc. too long you get frustrated and can't handle the faster car.
instead, if same person would have immediately stepped into that F40 or countach, and never driven with driver aides, he'll learn he CAN drive the car, and even be fast in it.

In the first situation, he would never be anything more than a midfield driver.
in the second situation, he has to fight for it, but he will be a podium driver.

i've done some karting years ago (for fun, not professional). I thought i couldn't go faster on the laps I did, untill somebody gave me some tips, some which were counter-intuitive to what i've learned myself. it took a good while before i adapted to it, and went much, much, much faster. In the first situation, my mind told me, that's it. Mentally, i've accepted that and that would mean that would forever be 'my best'. Then, i learned different, and i mentally HAD to fix that, then the results came in, and now (then) i can achieve much more/better.

The mental aspect is a very important factor to a variety of degrees. it's not just about speed, it's not just about not being afraid, and its not just 'talent'. Your talent is useless if you don't use it to it's fullest potential.

[godlameroso]

Seat time is very important, and difficult to do in an F1 car, since it is constantly developing.

My first lap at Sebring was a 2:52, my last lap was a 2:18. There were 212 laps between the first and the last and 4 years of development. Some of it was down to the car, some of it down to me being more comfortable with the car.

F1 drivers only drive the car on race weekends and every race weekend the car has changed and the driver needs to adapt.

[TNTHead]

I think one should concider it in the extreme to an old lamborghini countach or perhaps a Ferrari F40, and a slightly slower car which has T/C, ABS, etc etc.
Obiously, if you start driving the slightly slower car with all the aids, you're less likely to go over the limit, and 'push' the car, and believe you can't do better and the car can't go faster.
then you step into that countach or F40, which is faster, but much more difficult to drive, and because you been driving t/c abs etc. too long you get frustrated and can't handle the faster car.
instead, if same person would have immediately stepped into that F40 or countach, and never driven with driver aides, he'll learn he CAN drive the car, and even be fast in it.

In the first situation, he would never be anything more than a midfield driver.
in the second situation, he has to fight for it, but he will be a podium driver.

i've done some karting years ago (for fun, not professional). I thought i couldn't go faster on the laps I did, untill somebody gave me some tips, some which were counter-intuitive to what i've learned myself. it took a good while before i adapted to it, and went much, much, much faster. In the first situation, my mind told me, that's it. Mentally, i've accepted that and that would mean that would forever be 'my best'. Then, i learned different, and i mentally HAD to fix that, then the results came in, and now (then) i can achieve much more/better.

The mental aspect is a very important factor to a variety of degrees. it's not just about speed, it's not just about not being afraid, and its not just 'talent'. Your talent is useless if you don't use it to it's fullest potential.

Interesting line of thinking. This way you could say that the RB16 is a very very good car because it brings out the best of racing drivers. And then it is a good car to learn on and should Albon get the time to cope with it. Question remains: after how many races should he had enough learning? In other words whats his 'exam' race? I would think last race of this season.

The other way around you could say that the Merc car is unreal: it's fast and relatively easy to drive. More potential for them to unlock by making it harder to drive but not necessary?

[Marti_EF3]

I think one should concider it in the extreme to an old lamborghini countach or perhaps a Ferrari F40, and a slightly slower car which has T/C, ABS, etc etc.
Obiously, if you start driving the slightly slower car with all the aids, you're less likely to go over the limit, and 'push' the car, and believe you can't do better and the car can't go faster.
then you step into that countach or F40, which is faster, but much more difficult to drive, and because you been driving t/c abs etc. too long you get frustrated and can't handle the faster car.
instead, if same person would have immediately stepped into that F40 or countach, and never driven with driver aides, he'll learn he CAN drive the car, and even be fast in it.

In the first situation, he would never be anything more than a midfield driver.
in the second situation, he has to fight for it, but he will be a podium driver.

i've done some karting years ago (for fun, not professional). I thought i couldn't go faster on the laps I did, untill somebody gave me some tips, some which were counter-intuitive to what i've learned myself. it took a good while before i adapted to it, and went much, much, much faster. In the first situation, my mind told me, that's it. Mentally, i've accepted that and that would mean that would forever be 'my best'. Then, i learned different, and i mentally HAD to fix that, then the results came in, and now (then) i can achieve much more/better.

The mental aspect is a very important factor to a variety of degrees. it's not just about speed, it's not just about not being afraid, and its not just 'talent'. Your talent is useless if you don't use it to it's fullest potential.

Would be interesting if you share with us the tips you said. Need to improve times on track days, but don't know if it will be useful for cars. Last time I was on Barcelona I did a 2:19.7 with my Civic on the GP layout (same as F1)

[Manoah2u]

Well it was personal to my driving style i think, i just went full blazing, thought i was hitting the apex correctly, and going as close as i could to the corners. for me, i got some tips in hitting the brakes less, letting go of the gas pedal just a tiny bit earlier, instead of 'throwing' in the steering wheel gently start, then throw, then gently aim again. i noticed after a few laps of practicing that i had much less slide towards the barriers and speed went up significantly, causing more grip. After getting the hang of that, i was then told to brake even later than i originally thought was possible. also got the tip to less counter-steer in a slide, and simply put in less throttle when i feel the back end is slipping away. For me personally, this worked, but it can be different to anybody's driving style.
Ah, and i was told to put the seatbelts on even tigher than i did as i still got thrown around the seat too much, which not only caused bruises (after all, i did hit the barriers a couple of times due to being too violent with the kart, indoors in this case), but also influences balance. it was weird to me seeing these to me relatively 'minor' things turn into major differences.
I can only imagine how much a difference the tiniest of corrections have on F1 cars, and as such, how much effort and focus it demands to get the best out of the car.

If i had to look into actual tracks - i don't have experience on Barcelona, but do have some on Zandvoort's old layout with two former cars (i got rid of one, the other got stolen and got back with 25k in damages), i had a super light suzuki swift gti, and i must say probably was the most fun to drive, and had a 1971 Pontiac Firebird Formula with a 6.6 Litre GTO engine producing about 450 on the crank and probably around 400 on the wheels. latter was most satisfying to drive, but was double the weight of the suzuki, rear wheel drive obviously, and had just mildly improved suspension. By no means is a f-body bad in it's chassis (compared to general american cars of that era) but it's not the most agile built either and had quite some body roll.
It took completely different driving styles and though i pushed the suzuki to it's limits, i never even dared to push the firebird to it's limits simply because i didn't 'adapt' it to do track days and was my pride and joy, i just wanted to see what i could do with it on track days @ zandvoort. It had about triple the power of the suzuki, and just over double the weight, so it did go faster obviously but i was surprised at how little the difference was, but then again, i didn't push the firebird at all. I couldn't go that many laps either as i was frying the brakes and i didn't really had too much confidence in how much i could trust and push the radial tires.

anyway, i'm way offtopic here.

[Manoah2u]

Interesting line of thinking. This way you could say that the RB16 is a very very good car because it brings out the best of racing drivers. And then it is a good car to learn on and should Albon get the time to cope with it. Question remains: after how many races should he had enough learning? In other words whats his 'exam' race? I would think last race of this season.

The other way around you could say that the Merc car is unreal: it's fast and relatively easy to drive. More potential for them to unlock by making it harder to drive but not necessary?

In regards to the mercedes, i honestly don't know just how good it is compared to the redbull.
What for me is very interesting is that it's extremely sensitive to the function of the tires.
It's not just about the magnificient engine, it's the whole package together, and it looks like mercedes has focused
a lot too on the tires, the DAS system is another example of how much their aim is with the tires.

Offcourse the benefit from generally 'always' being at the front means they don't have hot air from cars in front overheating both the car and thus the tires, which helps them a lot. It reminds me of the Vettel Redbull era, they were untouchable in clean air, but had it much harder when confronted with traffic and competition.

Since they were in such a lead from the start, both engine-wise, and grip-wise you might say, the rest first had to catch up to their speed before being able to 'outdevelop' or 'beat' them, but in the meantime, Mercedes was able to develop themselves too offcourse, so their lead remains high, they have a big margin.

As for RedBull, interestingly, i think the car is indeed very very good. If we look at the fact that they generally are the only team in 2020 that can 'engage' Mercedes (that doesn't mean generally beat them though), then they have a significant 'lead' on the rest. Ferrari only managed to do so last season because of their 'cheating'. The only other team that did their own work and improved significantly is Renault.
Looking at how Renault F1 is doing, i wondered whether the RB wouldn't have worked better with the Renault engine now, but this is all speculation.

In all general comparisons, i'd say that right now, we have 1. Mercedes clearly in it's own league. 2. RedBull relatively close to that, and then we have a gap till we reach 3. the rest of the field, minus perhaps Williams for example which is in league 4.

Last season, we had 1. Mercedes, 2 RedBull and Ferrari, and 3 the rest.

Somebody else mentioned it before : if you take away the Mercedes team itself, then RedBull would have been the most dominant team. We would have had Williams in a interesting position in 2014 if that would have been the case.

After all, if we look again at 'just' the powerplant: Williams has the merc engine, and they're absolutely nowhere.
Mclaren HAD the engine but were not in any winning area. Force India, which became racing point, had that engine, but were nowhere near the 'top' like AMG is.

Suddenly, now that RP has their hands on the AMG cars brushed in pink, they're 'at the front'. Suddenly, a guy like Stroll does much better, which i think is very interesting too. STILL, it's not like they are in front of RBR though.

So conclusion is yes, the Mercedes IS, very, very good, and i do think that it's not that 'easy' to drive to be honest, as we might suspect. I'd say the reason why Hamilton is shining so much and Bottas not, is that the Merc could be pretty hard to drive, and Hamilton can 'just manage in front of the cliff' and Bottas 'falls just over the cliff'.

going back to RedBull, i then think that Max is able to wring out the max of the RedBull, and Albon simply can't as his level is below that of Max.

All in all though, the truth remains the same: RBR has not done enough to bring a car that is able to beat Mercedes.
I honestly don't think that the Honda engine matter so much at this point (offcourse not working is another story).

Again, Williams, Racing Point neither are fighting AMG.

And even though the chassis of the RedBull clearly is the best after that of AMG, the simple truth is, it isn't good ENOUGH.

[godlameroso]

I feel the RB chassis is better than the Mercedes is certain places. Slow speed hairpins, high speed sweepers. It's main fault is low to medium speed corner entry.

At a certain speed range the aero stalls during weight transfer. They have improved the situation throughout the year, but the Mercedes looks like its on rails. The grip levels are much more consistent and the power unit is better than the Honda.

The gap we see now is a result of that weight transfer instability and the deficit of the power unit.

On tracks where there aren't a lot of low to medium speed corner entries, more high speed sweepers and tight slow corners, the RB16 can hang with the Mercedes.

This is why I believe Nurburgring and Portimao will be good for RB.

Nurburgring doesn't have many corners with entry speeds in the 110-130kph region.

Notice the places where Verstappen spins during practice, note the entry speed of these corners.

Turn 4 and turn 14 in Sochi. The two lesmos, entry to parabolic and Ascari chicane. The RB had problems in those corners specifically.

[JordanMugen]

Well it was personal to my driving style i think, i just went full blazing, thought i was hitting the apex correctly, and going as close as i could to the corners. for me, i got some tips in hitting the brakes less, letting go of the gas pedal just a tiny bit earlier, instead of 'throwing' in the steering wheel gently start, then throw, then gently aim again. i noticed after a few laps of practicing that i had much less slide towards the barriers and speed went up significantly, causing more grip.

Interesting!

Those are the opposite to the tips that most novices, who aren't aggressive enough, receive from driving coaches.

[JordanMugen]

As for RedBull, interestingly, i think the car is indeed very very good.

How did you come up with that conclusion? Most of the time, the RB16 shows no improvement on RB15 laptimes (vs AlphaTauri with average 1sec/lap improvement), which tends to suggest it isn't all that good at all, heck it tends to suggest the RB16 is not even close to operating correctly (assuming it has higher theoretical potential than the RB15, because why would RB design a radically different car with a more powerful power unit and then find no improvement!?)...

I think Red Bull outsmarted themselves by implementing some overly complex behaviours (in terms of ride height changes, aero map etc) which they cannot setup properly at the track...