2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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uniflow wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 22:27
I know Im repeating myself here but I am trying to make a point.
My new uniflow engine is fitted into a YZ250F frame, it will be out doing trail rides, or if not, its a failure. These days I even have an engine dyno so I can show real outputs, power revs, fuel burn amongst other stuff.
Great work. That is some real high level stuff. It is difficult as inventors to get our ideas commercialized much less to prototype stage.

Can you remind of what makes the uniflow engine unique again? Easy to get disoreinted in this thread.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

uniflow
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Are you talking my uniflow, or general?

Ideas to Commercialization? Easy just put it on YouTube and let anyone have it.

joshuagore
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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uniflow wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 22:07
Are you talking my uniflow, or general?

Ideas to Commercialization? Easy just put it on YouTube and let anyone have it.
If I could use an American Football analogy. Anyone can catch the ball and down it (hey were still playing football even when we don't score), it takes a well coached team to bring the ball to the endzone and score. A team may consist of a commercial entity who owns the intellectual property, a licensing partner who has an application, and a manufacturing partner interested in making money along the way, a symbiotic co-dependence desiring a like minded goal. Maybe sometimes even multiples of the above for the same tech. i.e. wankel and their many varying paths to commercial applications over 50 years.

If such a team can't be created by a point person, then other options may be consortia. Checkout the many technological consortiums at places like https://www.swri.org/swri-consortia. They use a licensing fee which allows oem to dive in taste the tech and then run with it themselves having paid for the information and paid to license it if it finds a commercially viable home. This way the consortium can advance development from monthly fees even when a OEM may fail to find a home for the tech. If the OEM wants access to the continuous improvements they have to pay their yearly/monthly service/license fee for access to the 3d/sim/data etc..

manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Tommy Cookers.

You write:
“all of that is wrong ....
(except for riding in Moto GPs etc - btw how come GP Suzuki and other inlines are 'flat' crank ?)
in the lower 90% of the rpm range the torque events from combustion are far greater than the inertia torque events
ie the conventional even-firing inline four is better at this than is the R1, the TDM, or the conventional triple
'the rider's sense of what the rear tyre is doing' remains (PR-conveniently) unsubstantiated
anyway what matters to the buying public is a traction-control sensor's sense of what the rear tyre is doing”



The straight four with the flat crank needs not a balance shaft to cancel out the inertia moment created by the cross-plane crankshaft.
And the tuning of the exhaust is better / easier / more efficient; some Ferrari V-8 use flat crankshaft (and not crossplane) despite the strong unbalanced inertia force of 2nd order resulting from the arrangement.

Yamaha started their TDM with a flat crankshaft (crankpins at 0 and 0 degrees) and some years later they redesigned the engine shifting the one crankpin by 90 degrees (crankpins at 0 and 90 degrees), shifting also the weights on the two balance shafts; the inertia torque of the latter TDM900 is similar to that of the V2 (at 90 degrees) Ducati.

  • Here is how it goes:

    When a piston of the flat-crankshaft straight four (which is the most common engine in cars) is at its BDC or TDC, i.e. when the speed of the piston is zero, the speed of the rest three pistons is also zero. This means a zero total kinetic energy of the four pistons.
    After 90 degrees of crank rotation, all the four pistons are at their middle stroke, with their speeds at, or near, maximum, i.e. with the total kinetic energy of the four pistons maximized.
    So, there is a strong variation of the kinetic energy of the set of the four pistons, two times per crank rotation (the total kinetic energy of the pistons gets zero at 0 and 180 crankshaft degrees (0 is set at the TDC of the first piston) and maximizes at 90 and at 270 crankshaft degrees. This variation of energy is actually what creates the inertia torque.

    The crankshaft / flywheel absorb the energy of the pistons when they decelerate, and feed the pistons with energy when they accelerate.

    This means that the crankshaft / flywheel have to rotate at a substantially variable speed.
    If you put the engine to run without load at some revs, you can measure the angular velocity of the crankshaft / flywheel per degree of rotation; such a measurement says it all.

    With the crankshaft / flywheel revving at variable angular velocity, the wheels (driven through the transmission by the crankshaft / flywheel) rotate at variable angular velocity (or at least they try to). To avoid this, springs are added between the flywheel and the gearbox.

    So there is problem.
    The question is how significant it is.

    As the revs increase, the useful torque provided by the engine is, more or less, constant, but the inertia torque increases with revs square.
    So, no matter how lightweight the pistons are, if at some X rpm the inertia torque equals to the full-load useful torque of the engine, at 2*X rpm the inertia torque becomes four times stronger than the full-load useful torque of the engine.
    That is, if the X rpm you pass to the transmission 100kW useful power and 100kW “idling” (i.e. not making work) inertia power , then at 2*X rpm you pass to the transmission 2*100=200kW useful power and 2*4*100=800kw “idling” power (the revs double, while the inertia torque multiplies by 2^2=4).
    I.e. at high revs the “useful” power transmitted to the gearbox is like a “noise” inside the several times stronger “idling” power transmitted to the gearbox.
    • Worth to mention: while the instant useful torque (i.e. the troque from the expansion of the high pressure gass in the cylinders) has to do with one only piston (the power stroke completes in one cylinder and then starts and completes in another cylinder, and so on), the inertia torque has to do with all the four pistons (all the four pistons stop together and 90 crankshaft degrees they all, together, move with their maximum speed).
    What the V2 / 90 degrees Ducati does?
    The kinetic energy of the two pistons is more-or-less constant around a crank rotation (when the one stops, the other moves with its maximum speed). This causes the elimination of the inertia torque. This, in turn, means that the gearbox receives only useful power and not “idling” power.
    With the tire receiving pure useful torque, the feeling is much better.

    This is the idea behind the “cross-plane” crankshafts of Yamaha R1.
    They sacrificed the even firing and the exhaust tuning for the sake of an easier riding / control (feeling).
    Unless I am wrong, they were permanent winners in the moto-GP for several years; and this is not an opinion, it is a fact.


For an ordinary car that rarely runs above 3,000 - 4,000rpm, the inertia torque is not a big deal, while an un-even firing would be a big problem (the engine will sound “ill”).


The PatVRA:

Image

combines both “schools”:

it keeps the flat crankshaft, the even firing and the tune exhaust, on one hand, and it filters the inertia torque from not going to the gearbox, on the other hand.

How?

It allows the crankshaft to rev at variable angular speed (along a crankshaft rotation), keeping the primary axle rotating at constant angular speed.



You also write:
“re. the Triumph 'T' crankshaft ......
doesn't the 90 deg piston cancel some of the secondary vibration force sum (as did the 1983 Tenere and the R1) ??
secondaries are greatly underappreciated as resonant vibration sources with solid-mounted engines”



The central piston can take half of the free 2nd order inertia force of the pair of the outer pistons. This is good. But far worse than the even firing triple with the perfect balancing of all inertia forces.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

tok-tokkie
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Since there has been so much exposure to jet packs in this thread.
Here is an article about a jet pack being used as rapid response to an accident on a mountain. Just a simulation but also a trial to show its effectivness.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... est-flight

manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Tok-Tokkie

Amazing the video in "your" link:



Most of the time Browning flies at 1 to 2m height from the ground. Safely.

Great music; however the real sound (noise) cannot help being unaffordable (supersonic velocity of the exhaust gas).

Browning flies with his jetpack intuitively:
  • Control unit: Browning’s brain
    Sensors: Browning’s eyes and otoliths.
    Servomechanisms: Browning’s bones and muscles.


Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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tok-tokkie wrote:
29 Sep 2020, 17:55
Since there has been so much exposure to jet packs in this thread.
Here is an article about a jet pack being used as rapid response to an accident on a mountain. Just a simulation but also a trial to show its effectivness.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... est-flight
the TV coverage seemed to say ......
the jet paramedic needs to be taken by 'rapid response vehicle' (car or SUV) to within 1 or 2 miles
said paramedic has almost no equipment eg pain relief only - this is an exercise in triage not treatment
the casualty cannot be evacuated other than by the usual mountain rescue teams manhandling a stretcher
or by using a ...... helicopter
Browning says jetpack endurance is 5 min - one benefit of staying in ground effect presumably
(handily the NW of England is usually wet so avoids the is dirt ingestion problems)

helicopter 'Air Ambulance' so-called 'rescues' need to establish that the ground is quite solid and flat for landing
otherwise they must hover and eg release a paramedic only - to be as limited as the abovementioned jet-jockey paramedic
treatment even on-site by specialist doctors with extensive equipment is within 'AA' capability - if landing on-site is achieved
the AA is far from fully funded - due to the present lack of public events and their AA-charitable collections
the jetpack might yield more elements of presence within the constrained funding environment
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 29 Sep 2020, 23:50, edited 1 time in total.

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coaster
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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This appears to be a Rotax mounted in a motorcycle, you can see how much space the expansion pipe consumes. The question of power should be focussed on also, jetpacks cram alot of energy into a small and light package.
Would 4 jetpacks equal the power output of a 700cc modified Rotax such as this with comparable weight?

I imagine 250hp in that bike, 62.5hp for each turbine, or 46 kw. (Oops)


gruntguru
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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The problems of noise levels and jet blast from a jet pack make them less suitable for rescue. How far from the patient would it need to land to avoid distress, hearing damage, dirt ingestion etc?
je suis charlie

uniflow
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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not sure what happened there? but anyway there it is the 175cc OP engine Im building. Top crankcase missing.
Last edited by uniflow on 30 Sep 2020, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.

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coaster
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Bugatti-esque head cast with the block, what is revealed brings up so many questions.
Aspin design roots?

manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Coaster.

You write:
"I imagine 250hp in that bike, 62.5hp for each turbine, or 46 kw. (Oops)"


The claimed power per turbine used in the JetPacks is arround 250hp. Zapata has five of them in his JetPack:

Image

However the useful power is many times smaller because the big percentage of the energy produced by a JetPack turbine is lost with the supersonic exhaust gas.

With 1,250hp total power, Zapata hovers in the air with a total weight of less than 130Kg. The fuel he consumes is for making the 1,250hp.

In comparison, with a pair of counter-rotating, 43" diameter, propellers the same weight can hover consuming 25 times (or so) less power.

So, don't look at the power produced by the engines, but at the power the Flying Device can really utilize.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Tommy Cookers and Gruntguru.

Despite the:
  • extremely short range,
    the extremely short flight duration,
    the extremely high fuel consumption,
    and the unaffordable noise,
for the rest, this flight of Browning 1 to 2m above the ground is like a dream.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

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nzjrs
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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<begin massive off topic>

Back when I was interested and working on UAVs (quite before they were cool / prevalent / annoying toys) I started (and then failed) a small company for commercializing some of the early technology. As part of the market research we naturally looked into search and rescue and disaster recovery applications. The problem (for me) was there are not enough disasters etc to justify singular use / limited use tech like drones in those applications. Similarly, the jet pack thing is a nice demo, but the operational window seems.... uneconomic.

<end>

manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Uniflow.

Here is your new 175cc Opposed Piston engine:

Image

Reasonably:
  • A: crankshaft main journal

    B: lower crankcase

    C, D: transfer passageways.

    E: hole for the one sprak plug (there is another spark plug at the "back" side of the cylinder).

    F, I: exhausts.

    G: space for the synchronizing gearing.

    H: top end of the cylinder bore (it is whereon the exhaust piston skirt -not shown- slides).

    J: cylinder.

    K: bottom end of the transfer passageways (it is where compressed air or mixture, from some scavenge pump (not shown), is provided).

    L: gearbox

On the "H / G" side it is where the top crankcase (not shown) is bolted.

I may be wrong.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos