[ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

[El Scorchio]

Definitely #6, and also I’d add the team are probably just supplying him with the bare minimum required in terms of equipment and support.

As long as Ferrari plug in the same setup as Leclerc, Vettel has no reason to complain. He has Leclerc's data trace to copy and it is his job to duplicate Leclerc's technique -- corner entry oversteer tolerance inclusive!

The Ferrari is (at times) a top 5 car (great job on development BTW!), so it's Vettel's job to extract that potential in the way that Leclerc does!

[Same applies for Albon at Red Bull with that top 3 car.]

To be honest after today I am really starting to think they aren’t quite racing the same equipment. I just can’t equate the difference in performance to just driver skill alone.

[JordanMugen]

To be honest after today I am really starting to think they aren’t quite racing the same equipment.

Why would they supply one of their drivers with a deliberately slower car?

I suspect the problem is precisely that they are racing exactly the same equipment, corner entry oversteer included.

They are not going to waste time and money on building different stuff for Vettel, when the car is heading in the right direction and has plenty of pace.



Apologies if already posted, but that corner speed is right there with Mercedes, very impressive. Those calling for the chassis & aero department to be fired were way off the mark IMO.

[MtthsMlw]

Definitely #6, and also I’d add the team are probably just supplying him with the bare minimum required in terms of equipment and support.

As long as Ferrari plug in the same setup as Leclerc, Vettel has no reason to complain. He has Leclerc's data trace to copy and it is his job to duplicate Leclerc's technique -- corner entry oversteer tolerance inclusive!

The Ferrari is (at times) a top 5 car (great job on development BTW!), so it's Vettel's job to extract that potential in the way that Leclerc does!

[Same applies for Albon at Red Bull with that top 3 car.]

To be honest after today I am really starting to think they aren’t quite racing the same equipment. I just can’t equate the difference in performance to just driver skill alone.

Do you think the same for Verstappen and Albon or Russell and Latifi?
Vettel can't adapt his driving style to the car, lacks confidence, spins and so on. His dream at Ferrari ended abruptly. He's in a downwards spiral while Leclerc puts in superb performances race after race making him look even worse.

[e30ernest]

To be honest after today I am really starting to think they aren’t quite racing the same equipment. I just can’t equate the difference in performance to just driver skill alone.

Yeah the pace difference doesn't seem to be all down to just skill. I've always thought Leclerc would prove to be faster than Vettel when he entered Ferrari, but I never thought it would be this fast.

I'm guessing this is a mix of Vettel being out of the game mentally, the car not being suited to Vettel and the car being suited to Leclerc's driving.

[garychopper]

IMO, Seb justified Ferrari's investment only in the 1st year -2015, in all his other seasons he made mistakes at crucial moments. Can you imagine lewis sliding out from the lead in Germany in 2018 or taking out his teammate and max in Singapore 2017, plus numerous other spins? Seb has the full right to be on the grid, but he ain't worth 40 million $ at a top team.
I agreed with Ferrari when they let go of Alonso, and that was the time I made my first post. But I never doubted Alonso's driving skills or commitment. The environment became such that it was best for both of them to go their separate ways.
With Seb, I fully wanted him to win the championship with Ferrari and I believe that they could have done that had Seb was up to it. The difference between Mercedes and Ferrari over the course of the whole season in 17 and 18 was not team's mistakes or bad strategy calls...but it was the driver. It was Lewis who won the championships for mercedes and Seb lost them for Ferrari. In the races where Ferrari looked quicker, Lewis extracted those extra 10ths that made the difference. He won at crucial moments never losing sight of the title lead, never letting the pressure get to the team.
Daniel wiped the floor with Seb, it could be a fluke once...but with Seb, the list of mistakes are too long to be dismissed as a fluke. Last season, the team supported him and publicly called him as their no 1 driver, but Charles beat him even more convincingly than Daniel and this season, he is just embarrassing himself. He should have retired in peace with all the money he has made...
I think Ferrari has made the right choice in Carlos and they are on the right track.

[Sevach]

Ferrari does seem to be getting the hang of the "Red Bull style" car they designed for this year.
Now we have to wait for the 21 engine and what further improvemnts they can make using tokens.

[El Scorchio]

As long as Ferrari plug in the same setup as Leclerc, Vettel has no reason to complain. He has Leclerc's data trace to copy and it is his job to duplicate Leclerc's technique -- corner entry oversteer tolerance inclusive!

The Ferrari is (at times) a top 5 car (great job on development BTW!), so it's Vettel's job to extract that potential in the way that Leclerc does!

[Same applies for Albon at Red Bull with that top 3 car.]

To be honest after today I am really starting to think they aren’t quite racing the same equipment. I just can’t equate the difference in performance to just driver skill alone.

Do you think the same for Verstappen and Albon or Russell and Latifi?
Vettel can't adapt his driving style to the car, lacks confidence, spins and so on. His dream at Ferrari ended abruptly. He's in a downwards spiral while Leclerc puts in superb performances race after race making him look even worse.

Latifi and Albon are one thing. Vettel is a 4 time world champion.

I agree some of it is down to driving style and Vettel clearly preferring the characteristics the RB had when he was there but he was no mug in the Ferrari for a few years- unless that car was in fact better than we all thought?

I could be wrong and maybe it’s just possible LeClerc is really THAT good but is the gap in talent between the two really this big? It wasn’t last season.

[garychopper]

I also sense that there is tension between Mattea Binotto and Seb after 2019, and that is because Mattea had also started to have doubts about Seb's ability during the course of 2019 and whether he made the right choices.
I think Maurizio Arrivabene sensed after 2017 and 2018 seasons that Seb is not delivering, and this I infer from their radio conversations when Seb was doubting the strategic choices in the second half of 2018 and Maurizio's rebuke of Seb by asking him to concentrate on his driving. It was also seen in monza 2018.
Sergio Marchionne was a demanding man, and this is my assumption that part of why Maurizio was let go was because there was an internal fraction, one which had Mattea Binotto and Seb on one side and the other had Maurizio Arrivabene. Binotto won, and was promoted, Maurizio was let go and Seb was proclaimed as the no 1 driver before the season even started. This was Binotto justifying his faith in Seb and returning him the favor. They also hired a young driver. However, it just so happened that the young driver did exactly what numerous others did before him, namely thrash Seb convincingly and Binotto's justification and choice was proven to be shaky. And that is why now I think that there is bitterness in the relationship. Binotto can't wait to finish the season and show Seb the back door and Seb acting and sounding as if he has all the weight of the world on his shoulders.
Seb in a different team might be rejuvenated, perhaps he will discover some of his form, but I dont think that he will win a championship again unless he just happens to land a car which fits him to a tee. The 2010-2013 years were a fluke..it happened once but won't happen again.
Somebody remarked on this forum that drivers have an inmate ability to judge other drivers...I can't help but think of Alonso's words when he was asked about who is the best driver...right after Seb won his 4 championships.

[JordanMugen]

I agree some of it is down to driving style and Vettel clearly preferring the characteristics the RB had when he was there but he was no mug in the Ferrari for a few years- unless that car was in fact better than we all thought?

Yes that is likely to be the case. After all, Ricciardo already proved to be much faster than Vettel even before Vettel came to Ferrari. (I didn't understand why Ferrari signed Vettel on so much money, despite a winless season in a car capable of wins!).

Obviously with the car dialled in properly to Vettel's preferences, I doubt there were 5-8 tenths lacking like 2020, but there could have been an average 1-2 tenths left on the table all along in those 2015 & 2017-2018 title challenges. Without a second driver (or rather lead driver!) like Leclerc (or even Ricciardo or Alonso) in the other Ferrari, there was no way of knowing.

[El Scorchio]

I agree some of it is down to driving style and Vettel clearly preferring the characteristics the RB had when he was there but he was no mug in the Ferrari for a few years- unless that car was in fact better than we all thought?

Yes that is likely to be the case. After all, Ricciardo already proved to be much faster than Vettel even before Vettel came to Ferrari. (I didn't understand why Ferrari signed Vettel on so much money, despite a winless season in a car capable of wins!).

Obviously with the car dialled in properly to Vettel's preferences, I doubt there were 5-8 tenths lacking like 2020, but there could have been an average 1-2 tenths left on the table all along in those 2015 & 2017-2018 title challenges. Without a second driver (or rather lead driver!) like Leclerc (or even Ricciardo or Alonso) in the other Ferrari, there was no way of knowing.

It's very interesting. I guess Vettel's stock was very high and Ferrari thought maybe they had the next Schumacher which would of course make him well worth the money. Probably a few alarm bells could have rung when Ricciardo turned up at RBR and more than held his own. (You have to wonder how good Webber was as well. Personally I did think he was somewhat overrated.)

It definitely lends credence to the thought that Vettel really really needs the car to have certain characteristics in order to get the most out of it. Especially as you say if the 2017-2019 cars were built with that in mind and this year they decided to go another way to suit Leclerc a bit more.

We're only ever left with theories and what if's, aren't we! But otherwise we'd have nothing to talk and argue about. What is clear though is that Leclerc is doing a cracking job.

[Sieper]

I don’t agree Vettel lost to Hamilton on equal terms. I do think Hamilton is much better than vettel but he always had the better package as well. Leclerc is beating him, last year by a margin, this year very decisively. Vettel at this moment does give of a lacklustre vibe. And the more in front you are (on merit) the bigger the difference to your teammate will be. You can just concentrate on driving while the other is stuck in traffic, fighting for position and or locking up sets of tires while doing so. The same with Albon. Race after race. Now even lapped while he started on 6.

[jumpingfish]

I look at Mercedes: Ham and Bot sometimes very close in Q3, not so big gap during races. Hamilton obviously fast, but Bottas also looks very strong, he doesn't lose like Vettel or Albon. Lewis and Valtteri have the same driving style or their team supports both drivers? What's happening in RB and Ferrari? Albon and Gasly lost so much compared to Max but in Alpha Tauri Gasly has found his pace. Is it good to have 2 cars without any difference, if drivers has different preferences (Lec-Vet) ?

[Jolle]

I think most of Vettel's loss in speed could be put down to being mentally drained and just not in flow. Drained from loosing to Hamilton year in year out, the internal pressure of being the new hope for Ferrari, the following dropping of him and them "sort of" backing him and not backing him during the 2019 season with a new challenger.

[cheeRS]

Is there any one who have a clue what the hell is going on with Vettel?

1. He forgot how to drive?
2. He just does not give a s*it?
3. He is trying to revange Ferrari for being kicked out and do it in purpose?
4. He has totally no skill to adapt to the car that he doesn't like to?

The gap in performance between him and Leclerc is unexplainable...

The gap is only "unexplainable" ( I think you mean inexplicable) if you're a Ferrari fanboy. If you're not a Ferrari fanboy (you ARE logical/reasonable) you can easily see the lack of support and complete undermining of Vettel. You might think this is far fetched, but Ferrari have effectivley made Vettel their scapegoat after the engine scandal of last year. Ferrari have written off this season from race 1. Last year Vettel and Leclerc were relatively well matched. This year it is more lopsided than can be believed. Did Vettel just randomly lose all the skills that made him a 4-time WDC? Did a young Leclerc just destroy him that conclusively?

Here's the reality and I'd love it if someone could prove otherwise: After his engine-related retirement at the Russian GP of 2019, Vettel said "bring back the v12s" aka, these v6 hybrids suck and are unreliable. What's the problem with that? Well, Vettel said that message publically for all to hear. A big slap in the face to the crappy Ferrari hybrid engine. Well, guess who was head of the Ferrari engine department since 2013? Hmmm...... some guy named MATTIA BINOTTO. He took it personally. Since that race, Ferrari hasn't been the same, for Vettel. Binotto took it personal as a petty, immature Italian and couldn't let it go. Vettel ruined his reputation in 10 seconds during that radio message and Binotto is on a vendetta to ruin Vettel's reputation.

It's petty, it's sad, but anyone who has any idea of how things operate at Ferrari know what's going on. Think about it - they sacked 5-times WDC Alain Prost because of a shitty Ferrari car, they (according to rumors) sacked Schumacher because of a --- car in 2005-2006. In Ferrari, there is too much worship of their own name, too much **** ** Enzo's ***. Someone prove me wrong. Please, I'd love to hear it.

At least you gave me a good laugh with your “reality”, however I see it quite differently. Maybe you can have a good laugh at my post.
In my opinion Vettel was good, yes he was good when the cars had a double diffuser and were planted at the rear. Since the hybrid era he lost big time to Ricciardo who was a newbie at the RedBull team. Vettel should have been better because he had the experience in the team.
Once at Ferrari, yes, Vettel was most of the times faster than Raikkonen but not to the same extend as Alonso was faster than Raikkonen.
In 2019 Vettel started as the nr1 at the team, Leclerc being the newbie at the team however showed more and more pace over the year, ending with more points in the championship. And if not for having engine troubles while leading the Bahrein GP it would have been even worse.
Vettel has shown so many times (even at RedBull) he cracks under pressure. Spinning his car like a rookie, far too many lock-ups ruining his tyres and yes...then you will be even more slower, etc, etc.

Furthermore, Ferrari need every point this year because of the terrible car they built. Every point could mean a lot of money in the end. Also, this year ends already bad and if next year will be the same, it’s exit for binotto. But you think he (binotto) wants to dig his own grave by blocking Vettel scoring points ? Instead of finishing 4th and 5th he likes a 4th and no points from Vettel?

I appreciate you reading my post. I know it may ruffle some feathers, but I mean no offense and so I will respond to you with respect and no bad intent.

I think the best way to objectively consider what is going on at Ferrari is to take a step back and consider some facts.

1. Some are mentioning how Riccardo bested Vettel at RB in 2014 and that Vettel was "lucky" during 2010-2013. Who was his teammate during 2010-2013? Webber, an impeccible race driver and multiple race winner. In fact, he almost won the WDC in 2010. No slouch. I think the reality is that Riccardo is a top 4-5 driver in F1 right now and has really come to shine in the hybrid cars, whereas Vettel did better in the V8s. I don't think it's fair to say because Riccardo beat him, Vettel was not worthly of his WDCs.

2. From 2015-early 2019, Vettel vastly outperformed another WDC, Kimi. You could say that it wasn't the same Kimi of 2007, etc. etc, but Vettel had some really good shots at the WDC those years. Just another fact to consider when assessing Vettel's racing pedigree.
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3. Vettel seems to lose focus on the important points. Ramming into Hamilton at Baku, the crash in Singapore with Max and Kimi. He seemed to inherit the Ferrari sense of dignity, honor, and pride, but it caused him to make mistakes. I feel sometimes (2015-2019) he tries to hard to be Italian, too hard to be a Schumacher, and it hurt him. He could have ran away with the WDC in 2018 but he did throw it away.

4. Look at Vettel and Leclerc in 2019. I think everyone will agree that they were pretty evenly matched. In fact, they were less than 1 race win apart when the season ended. Leclerc beat him, but that doesn't mean he instantly became a bad driver and his charade was up. Look at Hamilton and Alonso. Technically, Hamilton beat Alonso in his rookie year, but to this day no one thinks that Alonso is a bad (or lucky) driver. I think it just shows that Leclerc is a generational talent, likely on par with Max.

5. Vettel is a 4 time WDC. He's had the highs and the lows. He's raced with the big boys. He's been controversial. Why then, has 2020 been so bad for him. A driver who wins 4 WDCs has the mental toughness to compete even when times are tough. Yeah, even I would say Leclerc is better, but for Leclerc to qualify 4th or 5th, and Vettel to be 15th... it doesn't pass the sniff test. Leclerc has totally destroyed Vettel if you just look at the numbers. I'd say the only explanation could be that the car 100% suits Leclerc's style and 0% suits Vettel's preferences. I really don't think Vettel has "given up" or has become "unmotivated".

[selvam_e2002]

Definitely #6, and also I’d add the team are probably just supplying him with the bare minimum required in terms of equipment and support.

As long as Ferrari plug in the same setup as Leclerc, Vettel has no reason to complain. He has Leclerc's data trace to copy and it is his job to duplicate Leclerc's technique -- corner entry oversteer tolerance inclusive!

The Ferrari is (at times) a top 5 car (great job on development BTW!), so it's Vettel's job to extract that potential in the way that Leclerc does!

[Same applies for Albon at Red Bull with that top 3 car.]

To be honest after today I am really starting to think they aren’t quite racing the same equipment. I just can’t equate the difference in performance to just driver skill alone.

I also think in same way.

1. the car developed to suit lecrec like
2. or Ferrari deliberately doing something on velltel car to show him he is not 4 time WDC. If you remember Vettel took fight with Ferrari(refer GP today article) so they can try to project Lecrec superior compared to Vettel. They have to make that point so Lecrec can stay at ferrari for a while.

We will see real Lecrec talent once Sainz in that car next year.

The vettel situation never happened with Massa, Kiki, Alonso, etc.... Seems something fizzy going with Ferrari specifically I doubt on Binotto!