Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

.... how the ERS harvests the extra harvest bangs from the MGU-K.

what extra harvest 'bangs' ??? ..... (what are 'extra harvest' bangs ???)

When the MGU-K drags on the crank @ 40Hz and sends that to the MGU-H to harvest extra energy. Those bangs. Of course those discreet moments of negative torque are attenuated by the inertia of the crank and the rest of the drive train.

[Tommy Cookers]

.... how the ERS harvests the extra harvest bangs from the MGU-K.

what extra harvest 'bangs' ??? ..... (what are 'extra harvest' bangs ???)

When the MGU-K drags on the crank @ 40Hz and sends that to the MGU-H to harvest extra energy. Those bangs. Of course those discreet moments of negative torque are attenuated by the inertia of the crank and the rest of the drive train.

the EH 'bangs' aren't like any in-exhaust bangs that you're going on about ......
the EH 'bangs' are an order of magnitude lower frequency/longer duration

so the ERS can efficiently (and in real time) accomodate each EH 'bang' - ie the H rpm doesn't rise on this account
(no surprise - that's design)
but the ERS can't accommodate (in real time) an exhaust bang - the H rpm does rise on this account

so it's not 'how the ERS harvests the extra harvest bangs from the MGU-K'

[godlameroso]

what extra harvest 'bangs' ??? ..... (what are 'extra harvest' bangs ???)

When the MGU-K drags on the crank @ 40Hz and sends that to the MGU-H to harvest extra energy. Those bangs. Of course those discreet moments of negative torque are attenuated by the inertia of the crank and the rest of the drive train.

the EH 'bangs' aren't like any in-exhaust bangs that you're going on about ......
the EH 'bangs' are an order of magnitude lower frequency/longer duration

so the ERS can efficiently (and in real time) accomodate each EH 'bang' - ie the H rpm doesn't rise on this account
(no surprise - that's design)
but the ERS can't accommodate (in real time) an exhaust bang - the H rpm does rise on this account

so it's not 'how the ERS harvests the extra harvest bangs from the MGU-K'

How fast can the ERS react? What is the switching frequency of the MGU-H or control electronics? If the switching frequency is higher than light detonation frequency ~1.5kHz, it should be doable, extreme case of 10kHz. Of course the detonation shockwave affects blade AOA, so the turbine would have to compensate for that.

IGBT's can handle 20kHz, so it's down to the MGU-H. Electric motors can handle up to 60kHz, so we're good there.

MGU-H is 125k rpm maximum, I'm stupid so I don't know what that amounts to in Hz.

*edit computers make me less stupid, so 2kHz is MGU-H frequency. In theory it should be capable of harvesting exhaust bang, but theory is second to experiment.

[hurril]

When the MGU-K drags on the crank @ 40Hz and sends that to the MGU-H to harvest extra energy. Those bangs. Of course those discreet moments of negative torque are attenuated by the inertia of the crank and the rest of the drive train.

the EH 'bangs' aren't like any in-exhaust bangs that you're going on about ......
the EH 'bangs' are an order of magnitude lower frequency/longer duration

so the ERS can efficiently (and in real time) accomodate each EH 'bang' - ie the H rpm doesn't rise on this account
(no surprise - that's design)
but the ERS can't accommodate (in real time) an exhaust bang - the H rpm does rise on this account

so it's not 'how the ERS harvests the extra harvest bangs from the MGU-K'

How fast can the ERS react? What is the switching frequency of the MGU-H or control electronics? If the switching frequency is higher than light detonation frequency ~1.5kHz, it should be doable, extreme case of 10kHz. Of course the detonation shockwave affects blade AOA, so the turbine would have to compensate for that.

IGBT's can handle 20kHz, so it's down to the MGU-H. Electric motors can handle up to 60kHz, so we're good there.

MGU-H is 125k rpm maximum, I'm stupid so I don't know what that amounts to in Hz.

*edit computers make me less stupid, so 2kHz is MGU-H frequency. In theory it should be capable of harvesting exhaust bang, but theory is second to experiment.

I (think I) get your switching recovery hypothesis and kinda like it. But bangs are something else - to the degree that they are intensional, I'd much rather ascribe them a poor mans MGU-h role.

[godlameroso]

The engine detonates anyway while at WOT on a straight, and the MGU-H is already recovering gas energy. It could be an efficient way to harvest a little more MGU-H energy, as you wouldn't be doing anything too drastically different. If this works you would get a bit more MGU-H energy, which means more MGU-K deployment, while limiting the amount of fuel you invest for it.

Consider what the difference is in deployment and what that is worth? 2 tenths per lap for an extra 1 to 3 seconds of full deployment on the straights?

[hurril]

The engine detonates anyway while at WOT on a straight, and the MGU-H is already recovering gas energy. It could be an efficient way to harvest a little more MGU-H energy, as you wouldn't be doing anything too drastically different. If this works you would get a bit more MGU-H energy, which means more MGU-K deployment, while limiting the amount of fuel you invest for it.

Consider what the difference is in deployment and what that is worth? 2 tenths per lap for an extra 1 to 3 seconds of full deployment on the straights?

But ... what is it that this _is_ that you are talking about? The extra battery charging using the MGU-h as a transformer of sorts? That has been known for ages and Honda even came out as using that, what, in 2016? 17?

[godlameroso]

That's why I said this would be a form of extra harvest similar to what Honda was already doing.

Look at the Holzwarth engine, I'm not inventing anything outlandish. Just suggesting something Honda may or may not be doing to improve MGU-H harvesting which is what they are lacking vs Mercedes.

It is technically possible, would it work in practice, could you squeeze more water out of that stone? Maybe, maybe not.

[etusch]

[Tommy Cookers]

How fast can the ERS react? What is the switching frequency of the MGU-H or control electronics? If the switching frequency is higher than light detonation frequency ~1.5kHz, it should be doable, extreme case of 10kHz ...
IGBT's can handle 20kHz, so it's down to the MGU-H. Electric motors can handle up to 60kHz, so we're good there.
MGU-H is 125k rpm maximum .... 2kHz is MGU-H frequency. In theory it should be capable of harvesting exhaust bang, but theory is second to experiment.

MG-H response (to turning a rapid turbine torque event into electrical energy not increased turbine speed) is limited by H's...

conductor resistance and inductance distorting/truncating conductor current waveform out of its match to the field flux form
and degrading the efficiency eg increased losses as heat
(I say conductor rather than armature as magnets will be rotating)
ie current events in the conductor don't necessarily follow the voltage events presented by the so-called control unit

ie conductor resistance and inductance amount to an electrical 'time constant' limiting M and G response rate
likely to be more than 5 millisec

of course the MGU-H works just fine for rates of change of torque below that limit
the system will develop variation of turbine speed from rapid torque events


AND THIS .....
the previous post shows that Honda uses '98 - 102 RON' petrol (+ mandatory biofuel content)
is that (petrol) Honda's choice ? - (eg as high combustion rate more important than super-high octane)
or is it the current rule ?

[hurril]

That's why I said this would be a form of extra harvest similar to what Honda was already doing.

Look at the Holzwarth engine, I'm not inventing anything outlandish. Just suggesting something Honda may or may not be doing to improve MGU-H harvesting which is what they are lacking vs Mercedes.

It is technically possible, would it work in practice, could you squeeze more water out of that stone? Maybe, maybe not.

But if what you're referring to here isn't the extra conversion via the MGU-h then I think you've got it wrong. Because even if you manage to apply the MGU-h as a switching brake on the exhaust pulses, that isn't free energy to be recovered in any sense. The pulses accelerates the turbo assembly and if you brake that, it won't spin as fast. You simply extract momentum out of it.

[PlatinumZealot]

I feel it's the driving style of Max that is using up more energy. He has this problem for years. The Honda engineers set the engine to certain profile, this is calculated based on practice sessions. If the driver uses that deployment more, or fails to harvest what he should, the ERS utilization will go past the target set for the lap.

[Juzh]

I feel it's the driving style of Max that is using up more energy. He has this problem for years. The Honda engineers set the engine to certain profile, this is calculated based on practice sessions. If the driver uses that deployment more, or fails to harvest what he should, the ERS utilization will go past the target set for the lap.

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

[Big Tea]

I feel it's the driving style of Max that is using up more energy. He has this problem for years. The Honda engineers set the engine to certain profile, this is calculated based on practice sessions. If the driver uses that deployment more, or fails to harvest what he should, the ERS utilization will go past the target set for the lap.

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

[Juzh]

I feel it's the driving style of Max that is using up more energy. He has this problem for years. The Honda engineers set the engine to certain profile, this is calculated based on practice sessions. If the driver uses that deployment more, or fails to harvest what he should, the ERS utilization will go past the target set for the lap.

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

Even if that were the case Verstappen doesn't drive that way. Not even close. He always takes a tighter apex, hamilton style. Those V corners are more a Vettel thing.

[godlameroso]

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

Even if that were the case Verstappen doesn't drive that way. Not even close. He always takes a tighter apex, hamilton style. Those V corners are more a Vettel thing.

How long is he mashing that OT button? Still, his pace is such that I doubt, he's overusing ERS, he pulls the gap to 4th pretty consistently. More likely, the Mercedes has ERS headroom VS the Honda, and that shows in the laps where Mercedes can pull over a second per lap, while usually only being a few tenths ahead.