Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[etusch]

I feel it's the driving style of Max that is using up more energy. He has this problem for years. The Honda engineers set the engine to certain profile, this is calculated based on practice sessions. If the driver uses that deployment more, or fails to harvest what he should, the ERS utilization will go past the target set for the lap.

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

In your case there are two things to consider. 1 what is benefit of being works team here ? Why Honda don't take care of it with engine mapping ? 2 Didn't driver make any change on their driving styles for better recharge. I think they need to adapt themself to use more regenerative braking that is more brake bias to rear. Maybe longer wheelbase of merc makes them better on this part.

[ryaan2904]

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

Even if that were the case Verstappen doesn't drive that way. Not even close. He always takes a tighter apex, hamilton style. Those V corners are more a Vettel thing.

No bro, the V corners are totally Verstappen style and not Vettel. Makes sense too, Christian said that their aim has always been to steal time from Mercedes in the corners.

[saviour stivala]

A power unit mode is decided upon and chosen to be used for a particular track for qualifying and race as per FIA single engine mode directive.
That engine mode will contain a set of control parameters that define how the internal combustion engine and energy recovery system delivers torque to the rear wheels. On the ICE side, the engine mode controls parameters such as the mass airflow into the combustion, air/fuel ratio, fuel injection and spark (when required) and therefore the combustion pressure, temperature and amount of energy released each cycle. On the ERS side, the engine mode controls the energy store state of charge, energy store and associated control electronics system temperature, electrical energy transfer to-and-from the MGU-K and MGU-H and the subsequent energy release of that energy to the drive-line. As is (single engine mode use only) the only input to the PU (re-desired power output) should now come only from the driver’s right foot only.
Having said all that it must also be said that as explained/quoted by ‘’mark4211 in:’’ (scuderia ALFA Romeo-Ferrari thread). The FIA new only one single engine made use still permit the use of overtake/defend button that overrides the engine mode and permit deployment of full electrical energy to the drive-line.

[godlameroso]

Regenerative braking is limited to 2MJ per lap, the rest has to come from either wasting fuel through extra harvest, or normal heat harvesting of exhaust gases via MGU-H/turbine. Therefore the only way to increase ERS harvesting is to waste more fuel, or get more out of the exhaust energy. Either way you're wasting more fuel to do so(IE the fuel isn't propelling the crankshaft directly). The more efficient your combustion process, the easier it is to make that compromise. So to gain more harvesting potential, you need a more efficient combustion process. Just a small improvement in fuel economy could lead to you saving an extra liter of fuel over a race distance, that's an extra liter of fuel you can waste on ERS for no trade off in power or economy over a previous version. Something like that can be achieved by just a new lubricant, or material that reduces friction.

[ryaan2904]

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

Maybe longer wheelbase of merc makes them better on this part.

How does longer wheelbase help with regenerative braking?

[godlameroso]

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

Even if that were the case Verstappen doesn't drive that way. Not even close. He always takes a tighter apex, hamilton style. Those V corners are more a Vettel thing.

No bro, the V corners are totally Verstappen style and not Vettel. Makes sense too, Christian said that their aim has always been to steal time from Mercedes in the corners.

[godlameroso]

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

Maybe longer wheelbase of merc makes them better on this part.

How does longer wheelbase help with regenerative braking?

More stability, which I assume he means greater ability to trail brake effectively

[henry]

Not taking a 'side' here just asking.

Would it not be affected by time under partial throttle? If say Max was a hard on the brake to hard on the throttle back to hard on the brake, which some claim he does to get a V shape corner, would it not affect the harvesting time and extend the deployment time?

Maybe longer wheelbase of merc makes them better on this part.

How does longer wheelbase help with regenerative braking?

Less inertial load transfer. Low rake similarly reduces load transfer. But it only makes a small difference by reducing the speed at which the tractive effort from the 120kW of the MGU-K exceeds that available from the rear tyres.

Edit: on the other hand the high rake car will increase the angle of attack of the rear wing and increase its downforce. The exact limits are nicely dependant on several parameters. Whatever the case the difference in regen will be very small.

[PlatinumZealot]

I feel it's the driving style of Max that is using up more energy. He has this problem for years. The Honda engineers set the engine to certain profile, this is calculated based on practice sessions. If the driver uses that deployment more, or fails to harvest what he should, the ERS utilization will go past the target set for the lap.

What a load of nonsense, and to add a complete and utter speculation pulled out of the blue. There's really no way for a driver to influence ERS deployment/harvesting to such degree. If that were the case there would be much more evidence present by now.

Don't you listen to the team radio?
Drivers can switch the level of harvesting on the steering wheel.
He also can influence it with driving. Lift and coast. Brake balance. Diff settings. Even pedal inputs.

In one incidient Alonso's pedal inputs threw off the computer and Honda had to reprogram it to accpunt for it.

Corner entry and exit speed obviously affects the end of straight clipping.

The driver can conciously increase harvesting preseve battery power for a given straight too.

What have you been watching all this time?

[Juzh]

Don't you listen to the team radio?
Drivers can switch the level of harvesting on the steering wheel.
He also can influence it with driving. Lift and coast. Brake balance. Diff settings. Even pedal inputs.

In one incidient Alonso's pedal inputs threw off the computer and Honda had to reprogram it to accpunt for it.

Corner entry and exit speed obviously affects the end of straight clipping.

The driver can conciously increase harvesting preseve battery power for a given straight too.

What have you been watching all this time?

Apart from Alonso one, which was very public, those are all related to manual overrides and switch positions. What I meant was driver can't influence ers this hard only by throttle and brake - with his driving style. Obviously if you're pushing OT every straight then you'll be slower overall around the lap. Same thing if you're using too high a mode for too long. I'm pretty certain Verstappen wouldn't be bothered to even say anything in this case, since in that case it really is down to driver himself.
In quali when ers is at max setting and completely automatic RB is still well down on mercedes (9 kmh in imola), this is the main thing that's the problem here.

[PlatinumZealot]

It is a good topic that could be a thread itself. I haven't seen it disucssed in depth before, how the driver influences deployement. Some research is to be done to gather clips and videos, interviews and articles.

[maguetox]

An interesting comment from Toto Wolff about the Honda PU.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15338 ... says-wolff

"It seems Honda has done a good job in bringing updates to the power unit. There is some good stuff in the pipeline, and they're still going to be around next year, giving it all to be successful in the championship."

I know Toto is hiper good in public relationship, but to to me the interesting part is the one in bold.

[godlameroso]

He's not wrong, Honda started the season not long after having a big breakthrough, they made a conservative improvement from winter testing to the start of the season. Since then, in the background, Honda have made several improvements to their power unit. The same basic architecture is there but just very well developed. The power unit footprint has shrunk, as has the cooling requirements, which means smaller radiators as well. Reliablity and power have both improved over what is on the car now, fuel efficiency has improved, giving more window for ERS recovery.

If the latest spec was shoved in the current car, just the ICE/Turbo combo alone would bring .2 at least. They still have a whole winter to keep developing what they have now, and given recent understandings of power unit behavior, and some corresponding ideas, there's certainly another step possible between now and the start of next season. There's still 5 months of development and Honda has good direction, it's a shame that once again Honda is forced out of F1 right when it's about to have a good weapon for the championship.

[lio007]

An interesting comment from Toto Wolff about the Honda PU.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15338 ... says-wolff

"It seems Honda has done a good job in bringing updates to the power unit. There is some good stuff in the pipeline, and they're still going to be around next year, giving it all to be successful in the championship."

I know Toto is hiper good in public relationship, but to to me the interesting part is the one in bold.

I wonder how much does Mercedes know, what is in the pipeline and if they can use this knowledge for their PU.

I'm afraid some Honda-engineers may have knocked on Merc's doors after Hondas announcement they're leaving. I can imagine there is (unfortunately) some brain drain now at Honda-UK. I think more engineers went from Honda to Merc than the other way around.
....but I think this discussion should be continued in the General Honda topic and not here in the PU-thread.

[godlameroso]

An interesting comment from Toto Wolff about the Honda PU.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15338 ... says-wolff

"It seems Honda has done a good job in bringing updates to the power unit. There is some good stuff in the pipeline, and they're still going to be around next year, giving it all to be successful in the championship."

I know Toto is hiper good in public relationship, but to to me the interesting part is the one in bold.

I wonder how much does Mercedes know, what is in the pipeline and if they can use this knowledge for their PU.

I'm afraid some Honda-engineers may have knocked on Merc's doors after Hondas announcement they're leaving. I can imagine there is (unfortunately) some brain drain now at Honda-UK. I think more engineers went from Honda to Merc than the other way around.
....but I think this discussion should be continued in the General Honda topic and not here in the PU-thread.

Both Mercedes and Honda have the same engine layout, and anything that Mercedes is working on, Honda probably is working on their own version. Mercedes is rumored to have a new type of intake system for next year, it's silly to think Honda isn't doing their own since the concept has been around for a few years.