[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[SmallSoldier]

From same article: “McLaren now makes the most of it to develop, since for next year its movements will be limited to two by regulation. One will be the change to the Mercedes engine and the other, they will spend it on a new aerodynamic concept for the front of the car.”

Is that an accurate statement?

It isn’t... Both tokens are used for the engine change... The new nose was introduce early since they wouldn’t have had a token to introduce it next year.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SiLo]

Personally feel like there should be powertrain + aero tokens. Be easier for teams to change engine supplier and not have a knock on effect on the rest of the car.

[CjC]

Personally feel like there should be powertrain + aero tokens. Be easier for teams to change engine supplier and not have a knock on effect on the rest of the car.

It’s because of Mclaren changing to Merc that created the need for the token system

[Ground Effect]

Personally feel like there should be powertrain + aero tokens. Be easier for teams to change engine supplier and not have a knock on effect on the rest of the car.

It’s because of Mclaren changing to Merc that created the need for the token system

Agreed, but it still ended up being unfair to McLaren in it’s application. The FIA aren’t the best at formulating rules. The tokens for the engine change should have allowed for optimum packaging.

[SmallSoldier]

Personally feel like there should be powertrain + aero tokens. Be easier for teams to change engine supplier and not have a knock on effect on the rest of the car.

It’s because of Mclaren changing to Merc that created the need for the token system

Agreed, but it still ended up being unfair to McLaren in it’s application. The FIA aren’t the best at formulating rules. The tokens for the engine change should have allowed for optimum packaging.

If we are objective, the chassis freeze for 2021 would have prevented Mclaren from changing engines... The fact that they already had a contract with Mercedes and potentially a problem to continue with Renault forced the FIA to come up with a system that would allow Mclaren to change engines, which creates the token system.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CjC]

Or they should have allowed all the teams to only change the rear element of the chassis to what ever extent they wanted.
Solves the Mclaren PU debacle and the Racing Point/ Alpha suspension debacle and so on....

[trinidefender]

It’s because of Mclaren changing to Merc that created the need for the token system

Agreed, but it still ended up being unfair to McLaren in it’s application. The FIA aren’t the best at formulating rules. The tokens for the engine change should have allowed for optimum packaging.

If we are objective, the chassis freeze for 2021 would have prevented Mclaren from changing engines... The fact that they already had a contract with Mercedes and potentially a problem to continue with Renault forced the FIA to come up with a system that would allow Mclaren to change engines, which creates the token system.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The token system and allowed number (2) seems fine from what I can tell. It's the implementation that seems entirely unfair.

There are essentially 3 levels (groups) of benefit from most beneficial to least:
1. Racing point, alpha tauri and haas. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit while also getting the free benefit of the better 2020 parts that they are buying from other teams.
2. Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Williams and red bull. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit.
3. McLaren. They have to spend both their tokens on an engine change and these changes are scrutinized by the FIA to have a minimal performance benefit unlike token spending by all other teams.
*Note* I'm not sure where Alfa Romeo sits as far as customer parts.

This could have been made more fair in a few ways:
1. Allow McLaren to get the aerodynamic performance benefit from the engine change to keep it in line with the other teams. Everything else remains the same.
Or
2. Allow 3 tokens instead of two and let McLaren spend 2 tokens on the engine change and the third on packaging or somewhere else. Other teams in group 2, as stated above, can spend 3 tokens how they like and teams in group 1 can spend 2 tokens freely and the 3rd on the updated 2020 parts that they buy from other teams

Either option would allow performance benefits of roughly equal value to all teams and would be the most fair while still keeping the majority of the car the same to keep costs down.

[Ground Effect]

Agreed, but it still ended up being unfair to McLaren in it’s application. The FIA aren’t the best at formulating rules. The tokens for the engine change should have allowed for optimum packaging.

If we are objective, the chassis freeze for 2021 would have prevented Mclaren from changing engines... The fact that they already had a contract with Mercedes and potentially a problem to continue with Renault forced the FIA to come up with a system that would allow Mclaren to change engines, which creates the token system.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The token system and allowed number (2) seems fine from what I can tell. It's the implementation that seems entirely unfair.

There are essentially 3 levels (groups) of benefit from most beneficial to least:
1. Racing point, alpha tauri and haas. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit while also getting the free benefit of the better 2020 parts that they are buying from other teams.
2. Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Williams and red bull. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit.
3. McLaren. They have to spend both their tokens on an engine change and these changes are scrutinized by the FIA to have a minimal performance benefit unlike token spending by all other teams.
*Note* I'm not sure where Alfa Romeo sits as far as customer parts.

This could have been made more fair in a few ways:
1. Allow McLaren to get the aerodynamic performance benefit from the engine change to keep it in line with the other teams. Everything else remains the same.
Or
2. Allow 3 tokens instead of two and let McLaren spend 2 tokens on the engine change and the third on packaging or somewhere else. Other teams in group 2, as stated above, can spend 3 tokens how they like and teams in group 1 can spend 2 tokens freely and the 3rd on the updated 2020 parts that they buy from other teams

Either option would allow performance benefits of roughly equal value to all teams and would be the most fair while still keeping the majority of the car the same to keep costs down.

I agree with this, though Haas use current year spec parts, unlike RP and AT.

[adrianjordan]

I assume McLaren could have opted to use 2021 spec Merc rear suspension etc and get around that limitation in the same way as RP et al are?

[the EDGE]

I assume McLaren could have opted to use 2021 spec Merc rear suspension etc and get around that limitation in the same way as RP et al are?

No

You only get a free upgrade if already using 2019 parts from another team

RP have already started using the 2020 Merc rear suspension so the point is now mute anyway. The upgrade was only free if the part was already in use by Mercedes before the 30th sept homologation date

Mercedes might not even choose to use their 2 tokens to update their rear suspension however if they do, then RP would also have to use its 2 tokens to use the upgrade.

[SmallSoldier]

Agreed, but it still ended up being unfair to McLaren in it’s application. The FIA aren’t the best at formulating rules. The tokens for the engine change should have allowed for optimum packaging.

If we are objective, the chassis freeze for 2021 would have prevented Mclaren from changing engines... The fact that they already had a contract with Mercedes and potentially a problem to continue with Renault forced the FIA to come up with a system that would allow Mclaren to change engines, which creates the token system.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The token system and allowed number (2) seems fine from what I can tell. It's the implementation that seems entirely unfair.

There are essentially 3 levels (groups) of benefit from most beneficial to least:
1. Racing point, alpha tauri and haas. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit while also getting the free benefit of the better 2020 parts that they are buying from other teams.
2. Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Williams and red bull. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit.
3. McLaren. They have to spend both their tokens on an engine change and these changes are scrutinized by the FIA to have a minimal performance benefit unlike token spending by all other teams.
*Note* I'm not sure where Alfa Romeo sits as far as customer parts.

This could have been made more fair in a few ways:
1. Allow McLaren to get the aerodynamic performance benefit from the engine change to keep it in line with the other teams. Everything else remains the same.
Or
2. Allow 3 tokens instead of two and let McLaren spend 2 tokens on the engine change and the third on packaging or somewhere else. Other teams in group 2, as stated above, can spend 3 tokens how they like and teams in group 1 can spend 2 tokens freely and the 3rd on the updated 2020 parts that they buy from other teams

Either option would allow performance benefits of roughly equal value to all teams and would be the most fair while still keeping the majority of the car the same to keep costs down.

I’m sure there are several ways they could have handled the situation, but I’m guessing that between been pressed on time to make a decision and having the team’s all agree on a path forward implied that there were going to be compromises as we have them today and some teams would benefit more than others.

I wouldn’t downplay the performance improvement of going to the Mercedes engine for Mclaren... Beyond power and reliability, as well as the physical aspects of the PU itself (packaging, COG), Mclaren will probably also make adjustments to other areas on the back of the car that will have a positive effect in performance (wheel base change maybe?).

Beyond the fact that teams like RP can have an upgraded suspension for free, I don’t think the token system is particularly unfair... The cars were supposed to be static from a chassis perspective, one team needed to make changes to their chassis to install a new engine... They created the token system so that everyone could make a change.

Now... What you can do with 2 tokens is also very limited in the big scheme of things, so even though it allows specific improvements, depending on where they are used and how good they are executed, it shouldn’t be a huge differentiator


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[trinidefender]

I assume McLaren could have opted to use 2021 spec Merc rear suspension etc and get around that limitation in the same way as RP et al are?

No

You only get a free upgrade if already using 2019 parts from another team

RP have already started using the 2020 Merc rear suspension so the point is now mute anyway. The upgrade was only free if the part was already in use by Mercedes before the 30th sept homologation date

Mercedes might not even choose to use their 2 tokens to update their rear suspension however if they do, then RP would also have to use its 2 tokens to use the upgrade.

If I had to hazard a guess I would say Mercedes would use one token to change the front of the chassis to remove the structural compromises that were required for DAS and the other on a new front suspension to fit the revised front of the chassis (if that's how the token system is accounted for).

[trinidefender]

If we are objective, the chassis freeze for 2021 would have prevented Mclaren from changing engines... The fact that they already had a contract with Mercedes and potentially a problem to continue with Renault forced the FIA to come up with a system that would allow Mclaren to change engines, which creates the token system.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The token system and allowed number (2) seems fine from what I can tell. It's the implementation that seems entirely unfair.

There are essentially 3 levels (groups) of benefit from most beneficial to least:
1. Racing point, alpha tauri and haas. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit while also getting the free benefit of the better 2020 parts that they are buying from other teams.
2. Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Williams and red bull. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit.
3. McLaren. They have to spend both their tokens on an engine change and these changes are scrutinized by the FIA to have a minimal performance benefit unlike token spending by all other teams.
*Note* I'm not sure where Alfa Romeo sits as far as customer parts.

This could have been made more fair in a few ways:
1. Allow McLaren to get the aerodynamic performance benefit from the engine change to keep it in line with the other teams. Everything else remains the same.
Or
2. Allow 3 tokens instead of two and let McLaren spend 2 tokens on the engine change and the third on packaging or somewhere else. Other teams in group 2, as stated above, can spend 3 tokens how they like and teams in group 1 can spend 2 tokens freely and the 3rd on the updated 2020 parts that they buy from other teams

Either option would allow performance benefits of roughly equal value to all teams and would be the most fair while still keeping the majority of the car the same to keep costs down.

I’m sure there are several ways they could have handled the situation, but I’m guessing that between been pressed on time to make a decision and having the team’s all agree on a path forward implied that there were going to be compromises as we have them today and some teams would benefit more than others.

I wouldn’t downplay the performance improvement of going to the Mercedes engine for Mclaren... Beyond power and reliability, as well as the physical aspects of the PU itself (packaging, COG), Mclaren will probably also make adjustments to other areas on the back of the car that will have a positive effect in performance (wheel base change maybe?).

Beyond the fact that teams like RP can have an upgraded suspension for free, I don’t think the token system is particularly unfair... The cars were supposed to be static from a chassis perspective, one team needed to make changes to their chassis to install a new engine... They created the token system so that everyone could make a change.

Now... What you can do with 2 tokens is also very limited in the big scheme of things, so even though it allows specific improvements, depending on where they are used and how good they are executed, it shouldn’t be a huge differentiator


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Considering every year the PU's generally get closer and closer to parity from a power, packaging and reliability point of view (this year's Ferrari being the exception because....reasons), it stands to reason that the gain from switching to a Mercedes PU isn't as great as it would have been in previous years or even in 2020. The main benefit probably would have come from the packaging with the radiators/cooling change which the FIA aren't allowing.

This brings me onto my next point. The other teams can use their tokens for direct performance benefit while the FIA is mandating that the token usage for McLaren has as little performance benefit as possible. That simply isn't fair. They should have, as stated in a previous post, allowed McLaren to have the packaging benefits but limit them to the same 2 tokens as everyone else.

[the EDGE]

I assume McLaren could have opted to use 2021 spec Merc rear suspension etc and get around that limitation in the same way as RP et al are?

No

You only get a free upgrade if already using 2019 parts from another team

RP have already started using the 2020 Merc rear suspension so the point is now mute anyway. The upgrade was only free if the part was already in use by Mercedes before the 30th sept homologation date

Mercedes might not even choose to use their 2 tokens to update their rear suspension however if they do, then RP would also have to use its 2 tokens to use the upgrade.

If I had to hazard a guess I would say Mercedes would use one token to change the front of the chassis to remove the structural compromises that were required for DAS and the other on a new front suspension to fit the revised front of the chassis (if that's how the token system is accounted for).

That would require 4 tokens as per page 100 https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6-19_1.pdf

Edit... in fact, maybe even 6 tokens

[SmallSoldier]

The token system and allowed number (2) seems fine from what I can tell. It's the implementation that seems entirely unfair.

There are essentially 3 levels (groups) of benefit from most beneficial to least:
1. Racing point, alpha tauri and haas. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit while also getting the free benefit of the better 2020 parts that they are buying from other teams.
2. Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Williams and red bull. They get to spend their tokens for performance benefit.
3. McLaren. They have to spend both their tokens on an engine change and these changes are scrutinized by the FIA to have a minimal performance benefit unlike token spending by all other teams.
*Note* I'm not sure where Alfa Romeo sits as far as customer parts.

This could have been made more fair in a few ways:
1. Allow McLaren to get the aerodynamic performance benefit from the engine change to keep it in line with the other teams. Everything else remains the same.
Or
2. Allow 3 tokens instead of two and let McLaren spend 2 tokens on the engine change and the third on packaging or somewhere else. Other teams in group 2, as stated above, can spend 3 tokens how they like and teams in group 1 can spend 2 tokens freely and the 3rd on the updated 2020 parts that they buy from other teams

Either option would allow performance benefits of roughly equal value to all teams and would be the most fair while still keeping the majority of the car the same to keep costs down.

I’m sure there are several ways they could have handled the situation, but I’m guessing that between been pressed on time to make a decision and having the team’s all agree on a path forward implied that there were going to be compromises as we have them today and some teams would benefit more than others.

I wouldn’t downplay the performance improvement of going to the Mercedes engine for Mclaren... Beyond power and reliability, as well as the physical aspects of the PU itself (packaging, COG), Mclaren will probably also make adjustments to other areas on the back of the car that will have a positive effect in performance (wheel base change maybe?).

Beyond the fact that teams like RP can have an upgraded suspension for free, I don’t think the token system is particularly unfair... The cars were supposed to be static from a chassis perspective, one team needed to make changes to their chassis to install a new engine... They created the token system so that everyone could make a change.

Now... What you can do with 2 tokens is also very limited in the big scheme of things, so even though it allows specific improvements, depending on where they are used and how good they are executed, it shouldn’t be a huge differentiator


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Considering every year the PU's generally get closer and closer to parity from a power, packaging and reliability point of view (this year's Ferrari being the exception because....reasons), it stands to reason that the gain from switching to a Mercedes PU isn't as great as it would have been in previous years or even in 2020. The main benefit probably would have come from the packaging with the radiators/cooling change which the FIA aren't allowing.

This brings me onto my next point. The other teams can use their tokens for direct performance benefit while the FIA is mandating that the token usage for McLaren has as little performance benefit as possible. That simply isn't fair. They should have, as stated in a previous post, allowed McLaren to have the packaging benefits but limit them to the same 2 tokens as everyone else.

You bring an interesting point in regards to cooling... The new PU will have different cooling requirements than the Renault PU, therefore it is to be expected that Mclaren will have to change radiators and other cooling requirements to match the new PU (which according to reports runs hotter than the rest of the field).

I want to be as cautious as you and think that there isn’t a big disparity between PU’s... But the Mercedes one is still the most powerful PU in the grid and it is expected to make another jump for next year... Whether the rest manage to catch them or not is a different story and we won’t know until 2021, but the expectation is that it will continue to be the best in class or at least very close to it... I wouldn’t downplay the benefits of the change in regards to power... Now, the increase in power won’t allow Mclaren to improve by half a second, a couple of tenths at most is what could be expected from the switch... But, if gains would be so easy to find elsewhere in the car, Mclaren would have close the gap to the front farther than it has so far.

I disagree with your opinion in regards to fairness, but I respect it... Ultimately I’m just glad that Mclaren was allowed to install the new engine and make the necessary changes to install it properly... The fact that they are not maximizing the change due to Covid and the necessity of having a system like the Tokens seems like the best compromise at the end of the day for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk