2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

[Jolle]

I wouldn't put him ahead of Räikkönen. He had some outstanding drives with a clearly lackluster car.

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

The amount of brain farts ? Please reel off all these moments please. I will be waiting for this long long reply. Looking at Bottas this season, his Monza race was poor. In Turkey he messed up on lap 1 and damaged his car. The only other times he was beaten by another car was Hungary where it was wet at the start where he made a bad start and dropped to 7th and recovered to 3rd on a track thats known for hard overtaking. Also Spain again he lost places at the start and was 5th at one point. He recovered to 3rd again. Germany he had PU problems and retired. The rest of his results were 1 place behind Lewis (remember Lewis being statistically the best driver ever so finishing behind him is most likely for any driver) So I'm struggling to see all these moments you are claiming happened.

Gasly proved in Monza he had the best car ? what the hell? at no point was the Alpha Tauri the best car in Monza. Gasly was possibly the luckiest driver, but never was it the best car, and thats what you said. The best car was hit with a huge penalty for breaking the rules that day.

Don't forget, Bottas has Hamilton as a teammate. Hamilton doesn't wreck your confidence out of the car but on track. Four years of that will put any driver in some kind of dispair. Even when he has a stellar weekend, leading every session there is always that knowledge that at any time on Saturday or Sunday that #44 car is suddenly in front, by some margin. Racing Hamilton means you never get a break.

[e30ernest]

Yeah when I see Bottas' face, it kind of reminds me of Rosberg's face in 2015 and later in the 2016 season. There's that look, of disappointment, resentment in some ways, but also confusion. Trying to psyche yourself up as someone who can beat your teammate who also happens to be one of the greatest in your generation must be truly mentally exhausting. I'm surprised Bottas did not turn to sports psychologists like Rosberg did (or maybe he did?).

[Mogster]

I find it quite impressive that even though Merc are dominant 7 of the 10 teams have had podium finishes this year, 12 of the 20 drivers have had podiums.

Behind the Mercs and Max the racing is the closest it’s been for years.

[Just_a_fan]

Hamilton doesn't wreck your confidence out of the car but on track. Four years of that will put any driver in some kind of dispair. Even when he has a stellar weekend, leading every session there is always that knowledge that at any time on Saturday or Sunday that #44 car is suddenly in front, by some margin. Racing Hamilton means you never get a break.

The fact is that Hamilton doesn't need to play mind games.

Rosberg admitted to resorting to mind games. Ironically, it was Schumacher that showed him how effective it could be. Schumacher, the man with apparently unassailable records, resorted to mind games against Rosberg. But Hamilton doesn't. He just beats you on track, as Rosberg found out.

Imagine you've spent three years beating the guy many consider the best ever, and then the new guy comes along and beats you 3 years in a row. And you resort to mind games and throw yourself entirely in to the task of beating him and then you only do it through better fortune because Hamilton has a mechanical failure. Is it any wonder he retired after 2016?

Bottas is either extremely stubborn, extremely self-opinionated or is playing a public role whilst banking the cash, knowing that he's never going to beat Hamilton in a fair fight. All racing drivers have big egos but Bottas can't really believe he can beat Hamilton over a season, can he? The occasional race, yes, but not a season. So that leaves the money. For £8m a year, I'd come second to Hamilton quite happily!

[Shrieker]

Most heart in mouth moment of the weekend:

https://youtu.be/bg3v8VKEtBc?t=96

That could've gone horrendously wrong.. Glad nothing happened.

[El Scorchio]

Hamilton doesn't wreck your confidence out of the car but on track. Four years of that will put any driver in some kind of dispair. Even when he has a stellar weekend, leading every session there is always that knowledge that at any time on Saturday or Sunday that #44 car is suddenly in front, by some margin. Racing Hamilton means you never get a break.

The fact is that Hamilton doesn't need to play mind games.

Rosberg admitted to resorting to mind games. Ironically, it was Schumacher that showed him how effective it could be. Schumacher, the man with apparently unassailable records, resorted to mind games against Rosberg. But Hamilton doesn't. He just beats you on track, as Rosberg found out.

Imagine you've spent three years beating the guy many consider the best ever, and then the new guy comes along and beats you 3 years in a row. And you resort to mind games and throw yourself entirely in to the task of beating him and then you only do it through better fortune because Hamilton has a mechanical failure. Is it any wonder he retired after 2016?

Bottas is either extremely stubborn, extremely self-opinionated or is playing a public role whilst banking the cash, knowing that he's never going to beat Hamilton in a fair fight. All racing drivers have big egos but Bottas can't really believe he can beat Hamilton over a season, can he? The occasional race, yes, but not a season. So that leaves the money. For £8m a year, I'd come second to Hamilton quite happily!

Well, I think that Rosberg has proved it's possible- if you are at the very top of your game and he has reliability problems and a small gap in the armour appears for long enough (Hamilton's starts at the beginning of the year) then if you can stay close, you never know if you could pounce.

I think a lot of stars aligned for Rosberg that one season and I shouldn't think it'll happen again, but Bottas or whoever the team mate is just has to hope that it COULD happen again and a chance could present itself before he's put himself out of sight. This season for example he could have missed a couple of races with Covid. If that happens then it's a superb opportunity all of a sudden.

[Just_a_fan]

Well, I think that Rosberg has proved it's possible- if you are at the very top of your game and he has reliability problems and a small gap in the armour appears for long enough (Hamilton's starts at the beginning of the year) then if you can stay close, you never know if you could pounce.

I think a lot of stars aligned for Rosberg that one season and I shouldn't think it'll happen again, but Bottas or whoever the team mate is just has to hope that it COULD happen again and a chance could present itself before he's put himself out of sight. This season for example he could have missed a couple of races with Covid. If that happens then it's a superb opportunity all of a sudden.

The point is that Rosberg only beat him by good fortune. Even after all of his hard work, Rosberg only beat Hamilton because Hamilton had one more retirement than he did. Hamilton lost 25 points in Sepang, Rosberg gained 3 points because of that failure and still only beat Hamilton by 5 points. If Hamilton hadn't had the Sepang retirement, Rosberg would have lost the title by 23 points.

2016 was Rosberg's best result by far and he still only won by good fortune. True, he put himself in the position to gain from that good fortune when it arrived, but if they'd had equal mechanical fortune, he'd have lost 2016 as well.

If Bottas, or anyone else, is going to bank on having better luck over a season than Hamilton in order to beat him, then they're already half way lost, aren't they? You don't go up against Goliath and think "David, old son, let's hope we're lucky with this stone". That's a good way to get thrashed.

[Mogster]

Hamilton doesn't wreck your confidence out of the car but on track. Four years of that will put any driver in some kind of dispair. Even when he has a stellar weekend, leading every session there is always that knowledge that at any time on Saturday or Sunday that #44 car is suddenly in front, by some margin. Racing Hamilton means you never get a break.

The fact is that Hamilton doesn't need to play mind games.

Rosberg admitted to resorting to mind games. Ironically, it was Schumacher that showed him how effective it could be. Schumacher, the man with apparently unassailable records, resorted to mind games against Rosberg. But Hamilton doesn't. He just beats you on track, as Rosberg found out.

Imagine you've spent three years beating the guy many consider the best ever, and then the new guy comes along and beats you 3 years in a row. And you resort to mind games and throw yourself entirely in to the task of beating him and then you only do it through better fortune because Hamilton has a mechanical failure. Is it any wonder he retired after 2016?

Bottas is either extremely stubborn, extremely self-opinionated or is playing a public role whilst banking the cash, knowing that he's never going to beat Hamilton in a fair fight. All racing drivers have big egos but Bottas can't really believe he can beat Hamilton over a season, can he? The occasional race, yes, but not a season. So that leaves the money. For £8m a year, I'd come second to Hamilton quite happily!

Well, I think that Rosberg has proved it's possible- if you are at the very top of your game and he has reliability problems and a small gap in the armour appears for long enough (Hamilton's starts at the beginning of the year) then if you can stay close, you never know if you could pounce.

I think a lot of stars aligned for Rosberg that one season and I shouldn't think it'll happen again, but Bottas or whoever the team mate is just has to hope that it COULD happen again and a chance could present itself before he's put himself out of sight. This season for example he could have missed a couple of races with Covid. If that happens then it's a superb opportunity all of a sudden.

A bad run of DNFs for Hamilton and Bottas driving well to capitalise and he could be WDC. It could happen.

Lewis has only had 1 DNF since 2016 when Rosberg beat him... Max has had 3 DNFs so far this year.

[piast9]

I disagree. Here is the comparison of HAM points vs his teammate points in each season he spent at Mercedes. I've also calculated how many points his teammate got in relation to HAM points:

year | HAM | mate | percent
------------------------
2013 | 189 | 171  | 90,5%
2014 | 384 | 317  | 82,6%
2015 | 381 | 322  | 84,5%
2016 | 380 | 385  | 101,3%
2017 | 363 | 305  | 84,0%
2018 | 408 | 247  | 60,5%
2019 | 413 | 326  | 78,9%
2020 | 307 | 197  | 64,2%

From that point of view the worst Rosberg's season was comparable with the best Bottas' season, which was his first at Mercedes. Rosberg was pretty much always closer to beating Hamilton than Botas. It was not just a luck that Rosberg managed what seems pretty imposiible for Botas.

[Just_a_fan]

A bad run of DNFs for Hamilton and Bottas driving well to capitalise and he could be WDC. It could happen.

Lewis has only had 1 DNF since 2016 when Rosberg beat him... Max has had 3 DNFs so far this year.

Exactly.

Hamilton's only had 22 DNFs in his whole F1 career(*) and, as you say, only one since 2016 hence why he has the record for consecutive finishes at 47 and previously held the record with 33. Those records are consecutive - he's had 1 DNF in 81 races. Anyone wanting to luck in on beating him by having fewer DNFs than him is going to need to sacrifice a whole bedroom full of virgins to the gods!

Maybe 2022 will change his luck as the cars will be a new concept and thus more prone to reliability issues, although the cars in general are pretty reliable mechanically these days.


(* interestingly, Schumacher had 14 DNFs just in his 3 years with Mercedes. Rosberg had 7 DNFs in the same period. Some of Michael's DNFs were reliability but he also seemed to have a fair number of collision DNFs too. In their time together at Mercedes, Rosberg had 6 DNFs and Hamilton had 7 DNFs, one each of those being the infamous Spanish collision of course.)

[Mogster]

I feel 2016 made Hamilton a better, more consistent driver.

Pre 2016 we were used to Hamilton having a few weekends a year when he just didn’t turn up, the guy who was famous for never winning a race after he’d won the WDC, the guy who took a few races to “warm up” at the start of the season... That guy has gone now, we almost never see those poor weekends. Post 2016 Lewis is a driving machine... I’m sure Bottas would prefer to be in the team with pre 2016 Lewis.

[Shrieker]

I disagree. Here is the comparison of HAM points vs his teammate points in each season he spent at Mercedes. I've also calculated how many points his teammate got in relation to HAM points:

year | HAM | mate | percent
------------------------
2013 | 189 | 171  | 90,5%
2014 | 384 | 317  | 82,6%
2015 | 381 | 322  | 84,5%
2016 | 380 | 385  | 101,3%
2017 | 363 | 305  | 84,0%
2018 | 408 | 247  | 60,5%
2019 | 413 | 326  | 78,9%
2020 | 307 | 197  | 64,2%

From that point of view the worst Rosberg's season was comparable with the best Bottas' season, which was his first at Mercedes. Rosberg was pretty much always closer to beating Hamilton than Botas. It was not just a luck that Rosberg managed what seems pretty imposiible for Botas.

But Mercedes has had much closer competition from the other teams after Rosberg's departure. Sometimes Rosberg would be 4 tenths slower than Hamilton on Saturday, but still end up on the front row. How many times Bottas has had that chance ?

If you don't take this into account, then your outcome will be skewed.

[Jolle]

I disagree. Here is the comparison of HAM points vs his teammate points in each season he spent at Mercedes. I've also calculated how many points his teammate got in relation to HAM points:

year | HAM | mate | percent
------------------------
2013 | 189 | 171  | 90,5%
2014 | 384 | 317  | 82,6%
2015 | 381 | 322  | 84,5%
2016 | 380 | 385  | 101,3%
2017 | 363 | 305  | 84,0%
2018 | 408 | 247  | 60,5%
2019 | 413 | 326  | 78,9%
2020 | 307 | 197  | 64,2%

From that point of view the worst Rosberg's season was comparable with the best Bottas' season, which was his first at Mercedes. Rosberg was pretty much always closer to beating Hamilton than Botas. It was not just a luck that Rosberg managed what seems pretty imposiible for Botas.

There is more to it then just these two (or three). In 2014-2016 Mercedes was unchallenged. Drivers could take a pit lane start and still finish second without a sweat. This is why I think it made Rosberg look a bit better then he was (together with Hamilton's string of unlucky failures during this period). Since 2017 there has been bigger opposition and some even won races on their own merit! plus, since Bottas is his teammate, Hamilton had just one DNF, while Bottas finished outside the top 10 eight times!

[zibby43]

The amount of brain fart Bottas has had this year, he wouldn't even beat Kvyat on merit. @schuttelberg is right. Bottas is the worst driver in the best car. Stroll proved, when any of those guys have the best car (on a given day), they can put it on pole. Gasly proved in Monza, if any of them have the best car (due to favourable situation), they can win GPs. So Bottas driving the best car in history, getting a couple of odd poles and wins, is hardly a showcase of any decent level of competitiveness.

Too bad there's no way to judge Bottas' pace outside the scope of the W11.

Too bad that's the only car he's ever driven in his racing career.

Aside from that significant oversight, what you're saying is, that the 7x WDC and WCC champions (i.e., Mercedes) are complete idiots.

You're saying that they have no ability to evaluate talent. And despite having the ability to sign anyone they want, they are deliberately sticking with the "worst driver on the grid." Maybe you should phone up Merc and let them know.

"But, but . . . they don't want to rankle Hamilton." That's fine. I still don't see them beating down the doors of Kvyat, Giovinazzi or any of these other soon-to-be unemployed drivers' doors.

Give a bit of rest zibby, you are much better than these kind of posts. Besides, don't make those wild thoughts as mine by quoting that I think 7x WDC and WCC champions as idiots. I never said anything remotely to that extent. Mercedes know where Bottas stands and they are happy with it as they don't want anyone creating intra-team headaches for them. If I were Toto, I would do exactly the same. So, stop making this as about opinionating about Mercedes. Every team would want a sound No. 1 and a good side kick, to have a painless season of winning both championships and Bottas is a good fit in that scheme of things. Me being a free internet forum arm chair expert, have certain opinions, which Mercedes doesn't have hear or care.

I think I was keeping things pretty light and fun, TBH.

“What you’re saying” is a figure of speech where I live. It means, you are implying this with your argument.

And my point still stands. If you’re aiming to win championships, employing the worst driver on the grid would be an idiotic decision.

I’m merely calling you out a bit for your over-the-top criticism of Bottas. If you said he’s outside your top 10, I can see merit to that.

But to say he’s the worst? I see that as trying to instigate rather than have a nuanced discussion. And I think you’re better than that.

[PlatinumZealot]

Crazy people. Now Bottas is less capable than half of the grid?!

The extent some people will go...