February Test Thread

[Roland Ehnström]

Anyway, the 2008 wing will have much better L/D figures than a 2009 wing - simply because it has a wider wing span. They can try to match 2008-2009 downforce figures, they can try to match 2008-2009 drag figures - but they simply cannot match both at the same time. Anyone that thinks otherwise could do with brushing up on the equations pertaining to lift dependent drag.

This would be true if you raise the 2008 wing to the same height as the 2009 wing. But with the lower position of the 2008 wing, it sits in a lot "dirtier" air, which makes it a lot less effective. I believe (I could be wrong) that the more narrow 2009 wing in it's higher position, is just as effective as the 2008 wing in it's lower position.

The reason that the rear wing was raised for 2009 was to make it easier for the cars following closely behind (the "hole" produced by the rear wing was moved up and away from the front wing of the following car), and the reason it was made more narrow was that it would otherwise have been far more effective in it's new position. (The reason for the high and narrow 2009 wing was NOT to reduce the overall downforce, this was made by changes to the diffuser and by getting rid of the extra wings, fins and chimneys that used to clatter the bodywork.)

[Scotracer]

The 2009 rear wing is deeper so it has more lifting area whilst not increasing angle of attack so I expect drag figures to be better in that regard. Overall, the rear wing has a smaller frontal area and a similar angle of attack on the whole so I expect rear-wing drag to be a little lower than 2008 (not much though).

[kilcoo316]

This would be true if you raise the 2008 wing to the same height as the 2009 wing. But with the lower position of the 2008 wing, it sits in a lot "dirtier" air, which makes it a lot less effective.

I don't believe the turbulence levels are significantly different. Both wings sit firmly in the wake from the roll-hoop/airbox.

I believe (I could be wrong) that the more narrow 2009 wing in it's higher position, is just as effective as the 2008 wing in it's lower position.

I would believe very differently, but since neither of us has data to back it up, its just opinion & counter-opinion.

The reason that the rear wing was raised for 2009 was to make it easier for the cars following closely behind (the "hole" produced by the rear wing was moved up and away from the front wing of the following car), and the reason it was made more narrow was that it would otherwise have been far more effective in it's new position.

(The reason for the high and narrow 2009 wing was NOT to reduce the overall downforce, this was made by changes to the diffuser and by getting rid of the extra wings, fins and chimneys that used to clatter the bodywork.)

IMO its the complete opposite.

An aerofoil section will always be much more sensitive to turbulent eddies approaching the same order of magnitude as its chord length - hence why the small winglets behaved badly in the wake of another car.

A larger section, in contrast, is much more insensitive (but not completely).


Thus I'd believe getting rid of the winglets will help in the wake, while narrowing the rear wing will reduce downforce while increasing drag. Obviously this drag increase will be in the two trailing vortices of the horseshoe system - and if the wing wake was not raised, this additional turbulence would have an additional (relative to 2008) detrimental impact on the car behind - cancelling out the gain from winglets. So they've raised the rear wing, which will move the rear wing wake further away from the front end aerodynamic elements (such as the suspension) of the car behind.

They've also moved the front wing back toward the ground and into the area of ground plane aerodynamics, which should hopefully make it much less turbulent, especially in the vertical direction. This should improve front wing consistency.

[kilcoo316]

The 2009 rear wing is deeper

EDIT:

Checked - it taller, but not longer.


2006 design box = 350x200


2009 design box = 350*250



That means your gonna have more drag from a more aggressive camber and AoA.

Thats before you consider the shorter wingspan.

[timbo]

Thats before you consider the shorter wingspan.

But shorter wingspan also means less effective wing, so for given downforce you'd get more drag.

[jddh1]

I am eager to see if this wing configuration is going to really allow passing. I think the KERS push-for-more-power button will help a lot more than the taller wing. Interesting that Mosley said that if this wing does not do what it was supposed to do he will still push for that CDG wing. Hmmmm...

[myurr]

The rear wing was also raised to decouple it from the diffuser. And you guys seem to be overlooking the fact that McLaren will probably claw back a fair portion of the downforce being simulated with the 08 rear wing through an extension to their diffuser, along the lines of the Williams or Toyota design.

[myurr]

I am eager to see if this wing configuration is going to really allow passing. I think the KERS push-for-more-power button will help a lot more than the taller wing. Interesting that Mosley said that if this wing does not do what it was supposed to do he will still push for that CDG wing. Hmmmm...

Can't see KERS making all that much difference by the end of the year as all the drivers will push the button at the same point on the track. So early on it might help with some teams running KERS and others not.

And Mosley can go take a running jump - makes you wonder if the reason the FIA has allowed the creative interpretations of the rules so that teams can have the shields and extended diffusers is so that Mosley can disband the overtaking working group and have his blasted CDG wing.

[kilcoo316]

Thats before you consider the shorter wingspan.

But shorter wingspan also means less effective wing, so for given downforce you'd get more drag.

I know - thats my point!


Any way you look at it - the L/D of a 2009 rear wing will be considerably worse than the L/D of a 2008 wing!

[Shaddock]

This would be true if you raise the 2008 wing to the same height as the 2009 wing. But with the lower position of the 2008 wing, it sits in a lot "dirtier" air, which makes it a lot less effective.

I don't believe the turbulence levels are significantly different. Both wings sit firmly in the wake from the roll-hoop/airbox.

As you can see from this shot very little turbulence from the front wings makes its way to the rear wing. This is a complete contrast to last year where the rear wing was in the dirty air from front wing, requiring flow straightening, drag inducing horns from BMW last year and the McLarens in 2006.

By running in cleaner air alone will increase the efficiency of the rear wing, hence improving it downforce to drag ratio.



Versus

[jddh1]

I am eager to see if this wing configuration is going to really allow passing. I think the KERS push-for-more-power button will help a lot more than the taller wing. Interesting that Mosley said that if this wing does not do what it was supposed to do he will still push for that CDG wing. Hmmmm...

Can't see KERS making all that much difference by the end of the year as all the drivers will push the button at the same point on the track. So early on it might help with some teams running KERS and others not.

And Mosley can go take a running jump - makes you wonder if the reason the FIA has allowed the creative interpretations of the rules so that teams can have the shields and extended diffusers is so that Mosley can disband the overtaking working group and have his blasted CDG wing.

I will have to disagree with that a little bit, perhaps wrongfully so due to the lack of KERS capabilities' knowledge on my part. We hear that KERS will provide 80 extra HP, but will that be for every corner? Will the system charge up every lap? I hope it will take a while to charge up, so that it's use is left to the driver on how and when he wants to use it. If that is the case, if I use my KERS at 70% capacity and pass you, but you save yours and pass me lap later at 100% thus pulling away a bit more then that will make a difference. Then if I use my KERS to block and have only 20% while you have, say, 80% you'll pass me with a bit more ease I think, (not taking into account other drivers in that corner or other blocking moves, etc.)

[kilcoo316]

As you can see from this shot very little turbulence from the front wings makes its way to the rear wing.

As expected - that is what the front suspension is designed to do.

This is a complete contrast to last year where the rear wing was in the dirty air from front wing

You cannot look at those two photos and tell me anything about the turbulence levels hitting the rear wing. You also cannot tell me anything about the effective angle of attacks hitting the rear wing. As a rudimentary comparison, go google F1 CFD images and look at the effect of the front wing on the rear wing.



Anyway - even if the wake effects you talk about were the case - that is a 2008 rear wing on a 2008 car... We are discussing the differences between a 2008 rear wing on a 2009 car and a 2009 rear wing on a 2009 car.

requiring flow straightening, drag inducing horns from BMW last year and the McLarens in 2006.

The horns were there to change the lift distribution over the wing in corners through induction of vertical velocities within vortices - not 'straighten' or 'condition' the flow.

By running in cleaner air alone will increase the efficiency of the rear wing, hence improving it downforce to drag ratio.

Trust me, with the reduction in span, and the teams needing to run greater angle of attacks to recoup the loss of downforce, it will be a lot worse.

[Shaddock]

This would be true if you raise the 2008 wing to the same height as the 2009 wing. But with the lower position of the 2008 wing, it sits in a lot "dirtier" air, which makes it a lot less effective.

I don't believe the turbulence levels are significantly different. Both wings sit firmly in the wake from the roll-hoop/airbox.

From the photograph you can see that green paint only reaches to the leading edge of the wing element. As the paint was applied to the front suspension, air travelling over the front wing through the suspension arms isn't being carried to the main plane of the rear wing. Therefore the levels of turbulence will be less than last years levels with an 09 spec wing

[RacingManiac]

I am eager to see if this wing configuration is going to really allow passing. I think the KERS push-for-more-power button will help a lot more than the taller wing. Interesting that Mosley said that if this wing does not do what it was supposed to do he will still push for that CDG wing. Hmmmm...

Can't see KERS making all that much difference by the end of the year as all the drivers will push the button at the same point on the track. So early on it might help with some teams running KERS and others not.

And Mosley can go take a running jump - makes you wonder if the reason the FIA has allowed the creative interpretations of the rules so that teams can have the shields and extended diffusers is so that Mosley can disband the overtaking working group and have his blasted CDG wing.

I will have to disagree with that a little bit, perhaps wrongfully so due to the lack of KERS capabilities' knowledge on my part. We hear that KERS will provide 80 extra HP, but will that be for every corner? Will the system charge up every lap? I hope it will take a while to charge up, so that it's use is left to the driver on how and when he wants to use it. If that is the case, if I use my KERS at 70% capacity and pass you, but you save yours and pass me lap later at 100% thus pulling away a bit more then that will make a difference. Then if I use my KERS to block and have only 20% while you have, say, 80% you'll pass me with a bit more ease I think, (not taking into account other drivers in that corner or other blocking moves, etc.)

To my understanding its only allowed to store a certain amount of energy for a percentage of a given lap(something like a few seconds worth). It doesn't "carry over" from lap to lap since that's all you can get it to store(ie finite capacity of a battery or the rpm of a flywheel). And I think that much is probably available for every lap since I am guessing the energy that CAN be recovered is much more than the energy that's actually ended up being stored due to the limit. I think the rule limits it to being driver activated. Though I wonder if it'll be more effective if it is programmed into being engaged for certain part of the lap automatically...

[jddh1]

I will have to disagree with that a little bit, perhaps wrongfully so due to the lack of the KERS capabilities' knowledge on my part. We hear that the KERS will provide 80 extra HP, but will that be for every corner? Will the system charge up every lap? I hope it will take a while to charge up, so that it's use is left to the driver on how and when he wants to use it. If that is the case, if I use my KERS at 70% capacity and pass you, but you save yours and pass me lap later at 100% thus pulling away a bit more then that will make a difference. Then if I use my KERS to block and have only 20% while you have, say, 80% you'll pass me with a bit more ease I think, (not taking into account other drivers in that corner or other blocking moves, etc.)

To my understanding its only allowed to store a certain amount of energy for a percentage of a given lap(something like a few seconds worth). It doesn't "carry over" from lap to lap since that's all you can get it to store(ie finite capacity of a battery or the rpm of a flywheel). And I think that much is probably available for every lap since I am guessing the energy that CAN be recovered is much more than the energy that's actually ended up being stored due to the limit. I think the rule limits it to being driver activated. Though I wonder if it'll be more effective if it is programmed into being engaged for certain part of the lap automatically...

I was hoping it would be driver activated, kinda like a push-to-pass button in Champ Car. I remember those things took a while to charge up. Not familiar with the works of that technology, but I was hoping the KERS would be available to the driver when needed.
I need to read more about the KERS. I doubt thought that they will be able to charge up the system with just one lap. Anyway, let me see if I can find a KERS specific thread around here and start posting there. Thanks anyways guys.