2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

[foxmulder_ms]

I feel bad for bottas, but i wont say from this one race that russel is the better driver. Russel was on a high for this race, and Bottas let Russel get into his head and he fluffed the race. The fear of being compared, and possibly the pressure for him to try and blow russel out of the water is what done him in.
I would like to see both race again for abudahbi, this time with bottas being his usual cool coffee sipping self.
He did poorly this race, poorer than usual. Russel did what he had to do, but at the same time i do think Bottas would have caught him. This race is akin to so many new kids on the block races like hamilton vs alonso, vettel vs riciardo, etc. The incumbent usually lets the new guy with nothing to lose get inside his head and end up performing worse than they should.

100%.

Russel did a very good start and raced really well *but* he couldn't shake Bottas. Bottas was within 2-3 seconds all the time then undercut worked 3-4 labs to increase the delta to 8 seconds. And when he passed Bottas during the race, Bottas was on 20 labs older hard vs new mediums so it was expected. Frankly, I don't understand why people are hyped this much either for or against him.

[foxmulder_ms]

In my lifetime, I will not support a sportsman like I did Schumacher. He was my childhood hero. What I do today in my life, a lot of its ethos is derived from seeing him. How meticulous and detailed he was. But, in my heart I know Lewis has achieved more and through his sheer willingness to accept more competition will probably and should be regarded as the best ever.

But, during the Schumacher days, he was a villain and his team mate's uselessness was almost used against his brilliance. I saw shades of it when Webber was unable to beat Vettel. But the sheer desperation among some fans to make Bottas look like this amazing driver I have never seen. It is beyond pathetic. A guy walks in and basically owns him and people are just clinging on to Abu Dhabi hoping Bottas puts a Hamilton on him. Newsflash!! He should have been doing that at Sakhir as well and the constant excuses for failure frankly sounds unbelievably desperate.

I think personally, Hamilton deserves his dominant cars. He's just earned it. Perhaps, he even deserves a lapdog. I don't think Russell is beating Hamilton over a year but I think what really *pisses off* most fans is the continuous pretence from Mercedes, Toto and Lewis that Valtteri is a "challenger." It's an absolute joke. I know a lot of fans will be on Hamilton's case if Russell beats Bottas at Abu Dhabi and I'm not going to be one of those but by god I swear some fans really push you to question the last few championships.

Just to put it out there- What is George to do if Red Bull offer him a race seat for 2021? Mercedes have already wasted Wehrlein. I think Ocon had done more than enough to be in a Mercedes already and I think it's just unbelievable that Russell doesn't get in the seat in 2021. Sure, he could be there in 2022, but Mercedes are being extremely arrogant and George extremely juvenile if he thinks that this dominance is forever. It might change.

There is only one other driver that "deserves" to be in a championship contender dominant car, like Merc (apart from GOAT himself) as a lead driver and that is Riccardo. Ocon was not able beat Perez and Daniel proved he is nothing special (Still extremely good but not a champion IMHO).

I don't understand what you are trying to say, please clarify if you don't mind. Is Bottas a bad or good driver? If he is good then Russel can be considered really good. **If** Bottas as bad as some here is portraying him then Russel did not do anything special anyway! People who are trying to prove Russel is good and also saying Bottas is terrible?!?!? These two assumptions cannot go together. It is a paradox

What Merc is saying Bottas has equal treatment. And almost every season he starts very good and challenge HAM very strongly especially on Saturdays then HAM starts to get motivated. It has been like this almost every year for Ham anyway. I don't think Bottas is a champion but I also don't think he is a walk over. This is why what Russel did is impressive.

[e30ernest]

I feel bad for bottas, but i wont say from this one race that russel is the better driver. Russel was on a high for this race, and Bottas let Russel get into his head and he fluffed the race. The fear of being compared, and possibly the pressure for him to try and blow russel out of the water is what done him in.
I would like to see both race again for abudahbi, this time with bottas being his usual cool coffee sipping self.
He did poorly this race, poorer than usual. Russel did what he had to do, but at the same time i do think Bottas would have caught him. This race is akin to so many new kids on the block races like hamilton vs alonso, vettel vs riciardo, etc. The incumbent usually lets the new guy with nothing to lose get inside his head and end up performing worse than they should.

100%.

Russel did a very good start and raced really well *but* he couldn't shake Bottas. Bottas was within 2-3 seconds all the time then undercut worked 3-4 labs to increase the delta to 8 seconds. And when he passed Bottas during the race, Bottas was on 20 labs older hard vs new mediums so it was expected. Frankly, I don't understand why people are hyped this much either for or against him.

Russell said he was managing the gap so I don't think he was trying to shake off Bottas. This tells me he wasn't pushing at all but taking as much care on the car and tires as possible. It's more telling that Bottas was not able to close into that gap and apply pressure on Russell at all.

[Moore77]

There is only one other driver that "deserves" to be in a championship contender dominant car, like Merc (apart from GOAT himself) as a lead driver and that is Riccardo. Ocon was not able beat Perez and Daniel proved he is nothing special (Still extremely good but not a champion IMHO).

To be a deserving champion, a driver need to have all round capabilities. Riccardo was beaten on sheer speed by Max. Riccardo's wet race performances (quali/race) are shabby. He is a good racer on Sundays in dry.

[e30ernest]

There is only one other driver that "deserves" to be in a championship contender dominant car, like Merc (apart from GOAT himself) as a lead driver and that is Riccardo. Ocon was not able beat Perez and Daniel proved he is nothing special (Still extremely good but not a champion IMHO).

To be a deserving champion, a driver need to have all round capabilities. Riccardo was beaten on sheer speed by Max. Riccardo's wet race performances (quali/race) are shabby. He is a good racer on Sundays in dry.

Ricciardo also beat Vettel so.... He also beat Verstappen on 2016 (though Max didn't have a full season with Red Bull) and 2017.

He lost to Max on 2018 but he also had more retirements (8 vs Max's 3) and just counting the points on the races they both finished in Ric actually finished with more points (158 vs 144). I'd say they are closer in overall performance IMO.

[PlatinumZealot]

In my lifetime, I will not support a sportsman like I did Schumacher. He was my childhood hero. What I do today in my life, a lot of its ethos is derived from seeing him. How meticulous and detailed he was. But, in my heart I know Lewis has achieved more and through his sheer willingness to accept more competition will probably and should be regarded as the best ever.

But, during the Schumacher days, he was a villain and his team mate's uselessness was almost used against his brilliance. I saw shades of it when Webber was unable to beat Vettel. But the sheer desperation among some fans to make Bottas look like this amazing driver I have never seen. It is beyond pathetic. A guy walks in and basically owns him and people are just clinging on to Abu Dhabi hoping Bottas puts a Hamilton on him. Newsflash!! He should have been doing that at Sakhir as well and the constant excuses for failure frankly sounds unbelievably desperate.

I think personally, Hamilton deserves his dominant cars. He's just earned it. Perhaps, he even deserves a lapdog. I don't think Russell is beating Hamilton over a year but I think what really *pisses off* most fans is the continuous pretence from Mercedes, Toto and Lewis that Valtteri is a "challenger." It's an absolute joke. I know a lot of fans will be on Hamilton's case if Russell beats Bottas at Abu Dhabi and I'm not going to be one of those but by god I swear some fans really push you to question the last few championships.

Just to put it out there- What is George to do if Red Bull offer him a race seat for 2021? Mercedes have already wasted Wehrlein. I think Ocon had done more than enough to be in a Mercedes already and I think it's just unbelievable that Russell doesn't get in the seat in 2021. Sure, he could be there in 2022, but Mercedes are being extremely arrogant and George extremely juvenile if he thinks that this dominance is forever. It might change.

Doesn't make sense for Russel to be Hamiton's number two at this point.
Mercedes need to help Lewis secure his 8th WDC. Think about the prestige it would bring to the brand. Definitely bigger than Russell's personal goals.

Russell as much as i rate him, is a complication right now and must be kept on the sidelines till the 8XWDC is secured at least. He passed the test and we know he deserves the seat, but putting him in it in 2021 can either crush his career, or get him fired. We don't want any one pestering and causing trouble in the garage when there are records to be broken. After that is in the bag. He is welcomed to test everything he got. Don't be surpised if team politics and mind games are used against him then...

[e30ernest]

In my lifetime, I will not support a sportsman like I did Schumacher. He was my childhood hero. What I do today in my life, a lot of its ethos is derived from seeing him. How meticulous and detailed he was. But, in my heart I know Lewis has achieved more and through his sheer willingness to accept more competition will probably and should be regarded as the best ever.

But, during the Schumacher days, he was a villain and his team mate's uselessness was almost used against his brilliance. I saw shades of it when Webber was unable to beat Vettel. But the sheer desperation among some fans to make Bottas look like this amazing driver I have never seen. It is beyond pathetic. A guy walks in and basically owns him and people are just clinging on to Abu Dhabi hoping Bottas puts a Hamilton on him. Newsflash!! He should have been doing that at Sakhir as well and the constant excuses for failure frankly sounds unbelievably desperate.

I think personally, Hamilton deserves his dominant cars. He's just earned it. Perhaps, he even deserves a lapdog. I don't think Russell is beating Hamilton over a year but I think what really *pisses off* most fans is the continuous pretence from Mercedes, Toto and Lewis that Valtteri is a "challenger." It's an absolute joke. I know a lot of fans will be on Hamilton's case if Russell beats Bottas at Abu Dhabi and I'm not going to be one of those but by god I swear some fans really push you to question the last few championships.

Just to put it out there- What is George to do if Red Bull offer him a race seat for 2021? Mercedes have already wasted Wehrlein. I think Ocon had done more than enough to be in a Mercedes already and I think it's just unbelievable that Russell doesn't get in the seat in 2021. Sure, he could be there in 2022, but Mercedes are being extremely arrogant and George extremely juvenile if he thinks that this dominance is forever. It might change.

Doesn't make sense for Russel to be Hamiton's number two at this point.
Mercedes need to help Lewis secure his 8th WDC. Think about the prestige it would bring to the brand. Definitely bigger than Russell's personal goals.

Russell as much as i rate him, is a complication right now and must be kept on the sidelines till the 8XWDC is secured at least. He passed the test and we know he deserves the seat, but putting him in it in 2021 can either crush his career, or get him fired. We don't want any one pestering and causing trouble in the garage when there are records to be broken. After that is in the bag. He is welcomed to test everything he got. Don't be surpised if team politics and mind games are used against him then...

This is unfortunately the likely outcome and likely what Mercedes have in mind.

[Restomaniac]

I feel bad for bottas, but i wont say from this one race that russel is the better driver. Russel was on a high for this race, and Bottas let Russel get into his head and he fluffed the race. The fear of being compared, and possibly the pressure for him to try and blow russel out of the water is what done him in.
I would like to see both race again for abudahbi, this time with bottas being his usual cool coffee sipping self.
He did poorly this race, poorer than usual. Russel did what he had to do, but at the same time i do think Bottas would have caught him. This race is akin to so many new kids on the block races like hamilton vs alonso, vettel vs riciardo, etc. The incumbent usually lets the new guy with nothing to lose get inside his head and end up performing worse than they should.

100%.

Russel did a very good start and raced really well *but* he couldn't shake Bottas. Bottas was within 2-3 seconds all the time then undercut worked 3-4 labs to increase the delta to 8 seconds. And when he passed Bottas during the race, Bottas was on 20 labs older hard vs new mediums so it was expected. Frankly, I don't understand why people are hyped this much either for or against him.

Russell did exactly what Hamilton does. Get a gap and maintain it.

Why burn out your tyres in free air? Better to put it in cruise and let the guy in your dirty air worry about it.

[Moore77]

There is only one other driver that "deserves" to be in a championship contender dominant car, like Merc (apart from GOAT himself) as a lead driver and that is Riccardo. Ocon was not able beat Perez and Daniel proved he is nothing special (Still extremely good but not a champion IMHO).

To be a deserving champion, a driver need to have all round capabilities. Riccardo was beaten on sheer speed by Max. Riccardo's wet race performances (quali/race) are shabby. He is a good racer on Sundays in dry.

Ricciardo also beat Vettel so.... He also beat Verstappen on 2016 (though Max didn't have a full season with Red Bull) and 2017.

He lost to Max on 2018 but he also had more retirements (8 vs Max's 3) and just counting the points on the races they both finished in Ric actually finished with more points (158 vs 144). I'd say they are closer in overall performance IMO.

As for 2018, did you consider that fact that, in almost all those Ric's retirements, he was behind Max? If Ric didn't have those retirements, the gap would have been less. He wouldn't have overtaken Max in standings.
Similar story in 2017. Ric was better that year in races, but thoroughly outqualified by Max. So Ric got outqualified 2 years in a row and outraced in 2018. That doesn't say, it was a even.

[ringo]

In my lifetime, I will not support a sportsman like I did Schumacher. He was my childhood hero. What I do today in my life, a lot of its ethos is derived from seeing him. How meticulous and detailed he was. But, in my heart I know Lewis has achieved more and through his sheer willingness to accept more competition will probably and should be regarded as the best ever.

But, during the Schumacher days, he was a villain and his team mate's uselessness was almost used against his brilliance. I saw shades of it when Webber was unable to beat Vettel. But the sheer desperation among some fans to make Bottas look like this amazing driver I have never seen. It is beyond pathetic. A guy walks in and basically owns him and people are just clinging on to Abu Dhabi hoping Bottas puts a Hamilton on him. Newsflash!! He should have been doing that at Sakhir as well and the constant excuses for failure frankly sounds unbelievably desperate.

I think personally, Hamilton deserves his dominant cars. He's just earned it. Perhaps, he even deserves a lapdog. I don't think Russell is beating Hamilton over a year but I think what really *pisses off* most fans is the continuous pretence from Mercedes, Toto and Lewis that Valtteri is a "challenger." It's an absolute joke. I know a lot of fans will be on Hamilton's case if Russell beats Bottas at Abu Dhabi and I'm not going to be one of those but by god I swear some fans really push you to question the last few championships.

Just to put it out there- What is George to do if Red Bull offer him a race seat for 2021? Mercedes have already wasted Wehrlein. I think Ocon had done more than enough to be in a Mercedes already and I think it's just unbelievable that Russell doesn't get in the seat in 2021. Sure, he could be there in 2022, but Mercedes are being extremely arrogant and George extremely juvenile if he thinks that this dominance is forever. It might change.

why dont you believe driver can have an off day?
We have seen Vettel have off seasons muchless days, and he is valued highly. I admit that Bottas let Russel get into his head. Does that make Bottas a slower driver? No it doesnt. Does that make Bottas have poor racecraft? It doesn't.
The man just had a really bad day. He has wins where has commanded from the front and held of challengers.
I don't think that ability will disappear overnight.
Bottas i beleive, overcooked his effort to be top dog in a team, and may have been trying to hard to eclipse George and it backfired. He is just not used to being a team leader; or having been in a team longer than a new comer. He was always the newcomer and the underdog. This weekend was the first time he ever had to defend his reputation and it was overcooked and failed miserably.

[selvam_e2002]

by any chance mercedes helping RP to secure 3d place? It seems that way in last race.

[TwanV]

In my lifetime, I will not support a sportsman like I did Schumacher. He was my childhood hero. What I do today in my life, a lot of its ethos is derived from seeing him. How meticulous and detailed he was. But, in my heart I know Lewis has achieved more and through his sheer willingness to accept more competition will probably and should be regarded as the best ever.

But, during the Schumacher days, he was a villain and his team mate's uselessness was almost used against his brilliance. I saw shades of it when Webber was unable to beat Vettel. But the sheer desperation among some fans to make Bottas look like this amazing driver I have never seen. It is beyond pathetic. A guy walks in and basically owns him and people are just clinging on to Abu Dhabi hoping Bottas puts a Hamilton on him. Newsflash!! He should have been doing that at Sakhir as well and the constant excuses for failure frankly sounds unbelievably desperate.

I think personally, Hamilton deserves his dominant cars. He's just earned it. Perhaps, he even deserves a lapdog. I don't think Russell is beating Hamilton over a year but I think what really *pisses off* most fans is the continuous pretence from Mercedes, Toto and Lewis that Valtteri is a "challenger." It's an absolute joke. I know a lot of fans will be on Hamilton's case if Russell beats Bottas at Abu Dhabi and I'm not going to be one of those but by god I swear some fans really push you to question the last few championships.

Just to put it out there- What is George to do if Red Bull offer him a race seat for 2021? Mercedes have already wasted Wehrlein. I think Ocon had done more than enough to be in a Mercedes already and I think it's just unbelievable that Russell doesn't get in the seat in 2021. Sure, he could be there in 2022, but Mercedes are being extremely arrogant and George extremely juvenile if he thinks that this dominance is forever. It might change.

why dont you believe driver can have an off day?
We have seen Vettel have off seasons muchless days, and he is valued highly. I admit that Bottas let Russel get into his head. Does that make Bottas a slower driver? No it doesnt. Does that make Bottas have poor racecraft? It doesn't.
The man just had a really bad day. He has wins where has commanded from the front and held of challengers.
I don't think that ability will disappear overnight.
Bottas i beleive, overcooked his effort to be top dog in a team, and may have been trying to hard to eclipse George and it backfired. He is just not used to being a team leader; or having been in a team longer than a new comer. He was always the newcomer and the underdog. This weekend was the first time he ever had to defend his reputation and it was overcooked and failed miserably.

Although he ticked all the right boxes I think Russell just proved that it's not very hard to lead a grand prix with a Mercedes, even if he only drove it once before and he's at least 10cm too tall for the chassis. If your stock hangs in the balance you don't have a bad weekend like Bottas just did; he was quite strong as team leader at Williams but now i think it's down hill from here.

[e30ernest]

To be a deserving champion, a driver need to have all round capabilities. Riccardo was beaten on sheer speed by Max. Riccardo's wet race performances (quali/race) are shabby. He is a good racer on Sundays in dry.

Ricciardo also beat Vettel so.... He also beat Verstappen on 2016 (though Max didn't have a full season with Red Bull) and 2017.

He lost to Max on 2018 but he also had more retirements (8 vs Max's 3) and just counting the points on the races they both finished in Ric actually finished with more points (158 vs 144). I'd say they are closer in overall performance IMO.

As for 2018, did you consider that fact that, in almost all those Ric's retirements, he was behind Max? If Ric didn't have those retirements, the gap would have been less. He wouldn't have overtaken Max in standings.
Similar story in 2017. Ric was better that year in races, but thoroughly outqualified by Max. So Ric got outqualified 2 years in a row and outraced in 2018. That doesn't say, it was a even.

I think on 2018, there were also extenuating circumstances that affected Ricciardo's performance. All those DNFs, coupled with all those qualifying penalties those DNFs caused and the fact that he announced his move to Renault as early as August would have all had an effect on his motivation and team support.

That said, of his DNFs 2- 6 in Max's favor, but it wasn't cut and dry too (because of those penalties):

1. On Bahrain, Ricciardo was running 4th vs Verstappen's 11th at the time Verstappen retired. Ricciardo's car shut down on the same lap so yes, Verstappen overtook Ricciardo, but only because his car died first.
2. Azerbaijan had the infamous collision between the two. Verstappen was indeed in front, but both have been trading places all race. Hardly an advantage from either.
3. Austria they were at 1-2 at one point but then Ricciardo had a mechanical issue so yes Max was in the lead here.
4. Germany Ricciardo did not even run Q2 since he had a 20-place penalty so he started at P19. No wonder Max was ahead when Ricciardo retired.
5. At Belgium Ricciardo P8 to Verstappen's P7 and got punted off at the start with the whole Hulkenburg brake lock pile-up. So technically you are right, Max was ahead.
6. Italy saw Ricciard again the recipient of a 30-place penalty for engine elements so he started from P19. That new engine exploded anyway. You are right again, Max was ahead (because at least he qualified).
7. Verstappen started on 18th here after receiving a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change. He didn't run Q2 as a result. Ricciardo was ahead at P4 vs Verstappen's P5 if I recall correctly when he retired.
8. Finally on Mexico, they were running 1-2 (Max ahead) so yes Max was ahead here.

So while you are correct that Ricciardo was behind Max in most of these retirements, 3 of those were outside his control (penalties+start collision). For Azerbaijan one could argue Ricciardo was faster than Verstappen and Max was only ahead due to strategy (overcut worked here).

So personally, I think both are very close in terms of performance during their time together. Max probably has the better potential due to his speed at that age but I don't think it is fair to say Ricciardo is not a deserving champion. Last year he beat Hulkenburg and this year he is beating Ocon. Granted Ocon had some time off F1, he still had the testing season to catch up on the new car.

[zibby43]

I feel bad for bottas, but i wont say from this one race that russel is the better driver. Russel was on a high for this race, and Bottas let Russel get into his head and he fluffed the race. The fear of being compared, and possibly the pressure for him to try and blow russel out of the water is what done him in.
I would like to see both race again for abudahbi, this time with bottas being his usual cool coffee sipping self.
He did poorly this race, poorer than usual. Russel did what he had to do, but at the same time i do think Bottas would have caught him. This race is akin to so many new kids on the block races like hamilton vs alonso, vettel vs riciardo, etc. The incumbent usually lets the new guy with nothing to lose get inside his head and end up performing worse than they should.

100%.

Russel did a very good start and raced really well *but* he couldn't shake Bottas. Bottas was within 2-3 seconds all the time then undercut worked 3-4 labs to increase the delta to 8 seconds. And when he passed Bottas during the race, Bottas was on 20 labs older hard vs new mediums so it was expected. Frankly, I don't understand why people are hyped this much either for or against him.

Even Toto and Bottas' own race engineer knocked Bottas' performance.

Wolff: "I need to talk with [Valtteri] and his crew – but yeah, he did not shine today."

Bottas' race engineer: "We need to be a lot better than this."

That surprised me, because Toto usually protects Bottas after poor performances. That's the harshest I've seen Toto speak about Bottas publicly.

I agree that being stuck on the old Hard tires made Bottas' performance look worse, but Bottas' bottled the start for a second consecutive week. That's becoming a trend. He also couldn't switch on the tires after the Safety Car. In general, poor race starts and poor tire management in the race are becoming trends.

I've been the first to credit Bottas for his ability to consistently stay close (and sometimes finish ahead) in quali. Those performances cannot be diminished. But after several years, he hasn't made the progress I expected in the race.

And it's not just Russell's performance in isolation that was impressive, it was the context of coming in on short notice, having to learn the car, not fitting in the car (no proper seat, no proper boots, being battered by the cockpit, etc.), and performing at that level on a brand new track (despite the obstacles), that made it so impressive.

Bottas could've wiped the floor with George in qualifying and nailed the race start and no one would be having these conversations, but he squandered a golden opportunity to step in and take over the team.

[El Scorchio]

by any chance mercedes helping RP to secure 3d place? It seems that way in last race.

Not in a million years. You couldn't orchestrate such chaos.