Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[Schuttelberg]

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

For someone like me, a Vettel fan and someone who's always liked Lewis and even secretly wanted him to win a title in that dominant 2010-2013 phase I can never forget Brundle's words where he said "you're looking at the most important bloke in F1 and he doesn't have blonde hair" clearly making a dig at Vettel and amplifying the much propagated theory that Newey won 4 titles.

I just am now wondering whether Vettel just beat Webber and is a complete luck box and whether Hamilton is this god who god cannot beat?

[notsofast]

I doubt it was a dig at Vettel. I think he was trying to say that motorsport has been mostly a white man's sport, and so it would seem unlikely that one of the greatest happens to be not a white man. Brundle himself was a racer and may not be the best at choosing the right words.

[Jolle]

I think in general driver input in development is quite small, especially in Newey cars (after I read his book). Having said that, it looks like there is more a drive to work on weaknesses of the car year over year with Hamilton at Mercedes then other teams. Like he’s more part of the senior management then just the driver.

[dans79]

Regardless of what Newey says (his ego is greater than a lot of drivers imo), Vettel did a lot of work for his titles. If memory serves he personally went to a Pirelli facility to meet with engineers and to test their tires to learn how to get the best out of them.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Regardless of what Newey says (his ego is greater than a lot of drivers imo), Vettel did a lot of work for his titles. If memory serves he personally went to a Pirelli facility to meet with engineers and to test their tires to learn how to get the best out of them.

That would have been illegal, he did not test them, he merely asked questions, which other teams sent proper engineers to do instead of drivers. Vettel did nothing special in his title winning seasons. He did his best to throw away the title in 2009, 2010 and 2012(and 17 and18). He has always been mistake and crash prone, and now he is getting demolished by his teammate again. We have seen the "not best driver on the grid" win championships many times, especially in a Newey car, previously Mansell, prost, Hill and Villeneuve, and we saw it again with Vettel. Vettel did just barely well enough to win the titles with a dominant car.

[tangodjango]

I think Peter Prodromou did a talk where he said Vettel did a lot of work to maximize the blown diffusers, however I don't buy that he was the undisputed best or most suited at driving those cars even though he was really great in that era. I think Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen would have done equally well if not better. I maintain it's a mixture of car and driver maximizing said car.

[Mclarensenna]

I think Peter Prodromou did a talk where he said Vettel did a lot of work to maximize the blown diffusers, however I don't buy that he was the undisputed best or most suited at driving those cars even though he was really great in that era. I think Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen would have done equally well if not better. I maintain it's a mixture of car and driver maximizing said car.

Absolutely agree. The myth that Vettels exhuast blown diffuser redbull was difficult to drive and get the maximum out of it is not true. As Ric tested Vettels 2009, 2010 redbull and was quicker. and vettels exact 2013 redbull just before he got the promotion at silverstone. Ric did not even fit in the seat properly and was very unfomfortable due to his wide hips and was instantly quicker in short and long run pace. Horner was even confused why he was quicker right out of the box like that and thought wow ye RIc is fast but we dont know if he can actually race. Well Ric put that concern to bed in 2014 with 3 wins to Vettels 0

Vergne and Algeshuari and many other torro rosso juniors when driving the redbull in tests all said how much easier to drive, better balanced, better traction like almost traction control like and faster. All there lap times also were right on it. So yes if rookies could instantly drive that redbull even faster than Vettel could you can be sure experienced drivers like Alonso and Hamilton could also.

Look also what Russell said about the Merc the current dominant car.

Asked on Channel 4 what it was like to drive the Mercedes, Russell said: “It’s a work of art, honestly, everything about it.
“It’s so smooth, so nice over the bumps, so much downforce, so much grip.
“And I feel in control of it. A lot of cars, when they’re not perfectly balanced the car is controlling you, and you’re reacting to the car.

“But as the driver in that Mercedes I’m controlling it, and that’s just such a joy. That’s what you want in a racing car and that’s what you get in this Mercedes.”

So yes i do agree if you put Ham or Alonso in the redbull back then they would have beaten Vettel just as easy as Leclerc or Ricciardo did. Dominant cars are generally much easier to drive not harder.

Hamilton whether you like him or not says some very interesting things and he usually on the money.
Remember he was saying Ferrari doing some strange things with the engine a few years back. Well looks like Ham was eventually proven correct.
Ham also famously said 1 time after qualy that Vettels car is just so dam fast compared to his, Vettel can miss 3 apexes and still get pole position.

[NathanOlder]

I think Peter Prodromou did a talk where he said Vettel did a lot of work to maximize the blown diffusers, however I don't buy that he was the undisputed best or most suited at driving those cars even though he was really great in that era. I think Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen would have done equally well if not better. I maintain it's a mixture of car and driver maximizing said car.

Absolutely agree. The myth that Vettels exhuast blown diffuser redbull was difficult to drive and get the maximum out of it is not true. As Ric tested Vettels 2009, 2010 redbull and was quicker. and vettels exact 2013 redbull just before he got the promotion at silverstone. Ric did not even fit in the seat properly and was very unfomfortable due to his wide hips and was instantly quicker in short and long run pace. Horner was even confused why he was quicker right out of the box like that and thought wow ye RIc is fast but we dont know if he can actually race. Well Ric put that concern to bed in 2014 with 3 wins to Vettels 0

Vergne and Algeshuari and many other torro rosso juniors when driving the redbull in tests all said how much easier to drive, better balanced, better traction like almost traction control like and faster. All there lap times also were right on it. So yes if rookies could instantly drive that redbull even faster than Vettel could you can be sure experienced drivers like Alonso and Hamilton could also.

Look also what Russell said about the Merc the current dominant car.

Asked on Channel 4 what it was like to drive the Mercedes, Russell said: “It’s a work of art, honestly, everything about it.
“It’s so smooth, so nice over the bumps, so much downforce, so much grip.
“And I feel in control of it. A lot of cars, when they’re not perfectly balanced the car is controlling you, and you’re reacting to the car.

“But as the driver in that Mercedes I’m controlling it, and that’s just such a joy. That’s what you want in a racing car and that’s what you get in this Mercedes.”

So yes i do agree if you put Ham or Alonso in the redbull back then they would have beaten Vettel just as easy as Leclerc or Ricciardo did. Dominant cars are generally much easier to drive not harder.

Hamilton whether you like him or not says some very interesting things and he usually on the money.
Remember he was saying Ferrari doing some strange things with the engine a few years back. Well looks like Ham was eventually proven correct.
Ham also famously said 1 time after qualy that Vettels car is just so dam fast compared to his, Vettel can miss 3 apexes and still get pole position.

Do you have a source on the info about Ricciardo in the older RedBulls?

[NathanOlder]

One thing to add, in neweys book he says when Webber left they lost a load of good feedback, especially in high speed corners. I think Webber was very important to those dominating years for RedBull.

[tangodjango]

I think Peter Prodromou did a talk where he said Vettel did a lot of work to maximize the blown diffusers, however I don't buy that he was the undisputed best or most suited at driving those cars even though he was really great in that era. I think Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen would have done equally well if not better. I maintain it's a mixture of car and driver maximizing said car.

Absolutely agree. The myth that Vettels exhuast blown diffuser redbull was difficult to drive and get the maximum out of it is not true. As Ric tested Vettels 2009, 2010 redbull and was quicker. and vettels exact 2013 redbull just before he got the promotion at silverstone. Ric did not even fit in the seat properly and was very unfomfortable due to his wide hips and was instantly quicker in short and long run pace. Horner was even confused why he was quicker right out of the box like that and thought wow ye RIc is fast but we dont know if he can actually race. Well Ric put that concern to bed in 2014 with 3 wins to Vettels 0

Vergne and Algeshuari and many other torro rosso juniors when driving the redbull in tests all said how much easier to drive, better balanced, better traction like almost traction control like and faster. All there lap times also were right on it. So yes if rookies could instantly drive that redbull even faster than Vettel could you can be sure experienced drivers like Alonso and Hamilton could also.

Look also what Russell said about the Merc the current dominant car.

Asked on Channel 4 what it was like to drive the Mercedes, Russell said: “It’s a work of art, honestly, everything about it.
“It’s so smooth, so nice over the bumps, so much downforce, so much grip.
“And I feel in control of it. A lot of cars, when they’re not perfectly balanced the car is controlling you, and you’re reacting to the car.

“But as the driver in that Mercedes I’m controlling it, and that’s just such a joy. That’s what you want in a racing car and that’s what you get in this Mercedes.”

So yes i do agree if you put Ham or Alonso in the redbull back then they would have beaten Vettel just as easy as Leclerc or Ricciardo did. Dominant cars are generally much easier to drive not harder.

Hamilton whether you like him or not says some very interesting things and he usually on the money.
Remember he was saying Ferrari doing some strange things with the engine a few years back. Well looks like Ham was eventually proven correct.
Ham also famously said 1 time after qualy that Vettels car is just so dam fast compared to his, Vettel can miss 3 apexes and still get pole position.

I don't want to downplay Vettel's contribution because in atleast 2011 and 2013 he drove at a truly great level even if Alonso was at a higher level overall in that era IMO. He did the job and dominated Webber like Hamilton is doing to Bottas now. He did have the back end of 2013 when he was untouchable (albeit without much pressure) much like Hamilton in 2018 and 2017 (when the pressure was highest). I just don't buy that it was something unbelievable just like I doubt Hamilton is coming anywhere close to his limits right now. IMO he should whip Bottas next year and take on Russel for 2022-2023, win or lose he will always have the cred of going up against a very very talented set of drivers and overall besting all of them which is not something you can say about many others.
Anyway I digress, regarding Vettel I think that linear torque supply of those engines (unlike the torque monsters since 2014) as well as the sticky rear ends suited him to a tee and he did exceptionally. Whatever else he or Horner says about him being adaptable or otherwise is plainly misinformation and they both know it. Otherwise if he was still so good why would RBR not sign him and sign Perez instead?

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

For someone like me, a Vettel fan and someone who's always liked Lewis and even secretly wanted him to win a title in that dominant 2010-2013 phase I can never forget Brundle's words where he said "you're looking at the most important bloke in F1 and he doesn't have blonde hair" clearly making a dig at Vettel and amplifying the much propagated theory that Newey won 4 titles.

I just am now wondering whether Vettel just beat Webber and is a complete luck box and whether Hamilton is this god who god cannot beat?

Vettel was obviously very good in his time, there are no doubts about that. You don't give Hamilton a strong run in 2017 and 2018 without being a strong driver. He also showed well against Kimi in their time together as well. He didn't dominate him the same way as Alonso did, but he dominated still. There is myriad evidence of Sebastian's speed and cunning. He definitely is one of the greats.

Only weakness I would say is that his style of driving is not as flexible as others. In Red Bull in the first half of 2012, he was struggling against Mark until the Coanda exhaut and the tyres were sussed out. Then in 2014 he struggled against Rick because the 2014 Renault engine was a crude in power delivery and the BBW was tricky. Sebastian recovered well in 2015 with a better balanced Ferrari under James Allison and he kept that momentum until a certain clerk showed up. I think by that time Sebastian was already in decline though. Kimi had out-qualified him in 2017 and was close to his pace in 2019. So definitely, Sebastian's edge has gone faster than the typical driver. If he does well at Aston Martin there will still be question if his mojo has really come back.

[SiLo]

This is just a "my driver is better than yours" thread and will inevitably be locked.

[dans79]

This is just a "my driver is better than yours" thread and will inevitably be locked.

Not if people don't act like spoiled children! Honestly, the moderators should just punish the children, instead of everyone for the actions of a few!

[PlatinumZealot]

This is just a "my driver is better than yours" thread and will inevitably be locked.

That is your hypothesis.

[Sevach]

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

For someone like me, a Vettel fan and someone who's always liked Lewis and even secretly wanted him to win a title in that dominant 2010-2013 phase I can never forget Brundle's words where he said "you're looking at the most important bloke in F1 and he doesn't have blonde hair" clearly making a dig at Vettel and amplifying the much propagated theory that Newey won 4 titles.

I just am now wondering whether Vettel just beat Webber and is a complete luck box and whether Hamilton is this god who god cannot beat?

Vettel was obviously very good in his time, there are no doubts about that. You don't give Hamilton a strong run in 2017 and 2018 without being a strong driver. He also showed well against Kimi in their time together as well. He didn't dominate him the same way as Alonso did, but he dominated still. There is myriad evidence of Sebastian's speed and cunning. He definitely is one of the greats.

Only weakness I would say is that his style of driving is not as flexible as others. In Red Bull in the first half of 2012, he was struggling against Mark until the Coanda exhaut and the tyres were sussed out. Then in 2014 he struggled against Rick because the 2014 Renault engine was a crude in power delivery and the BBW was tricky. Sebastian recovered well in 2015 with a better balanced Ferrari under James Allison and he kept that momentum until a certain clerk showed up. I think by that time Sebastian was already in decline though. Kimi had out-qualified him in 2017 and was close to his pace in 2019. So definitely, Sebastian's edge has gone faster than the typical driver. If he does well at Aston Martin there will still be question if his mojo has really come back.

The seasons you are comparing to Kimi should be 2016 and 2018(2019 Leclerc was already in Ferrari).
The Vettel vs Leclerc is weird to me, because last season started mostly Vettel with Charles showing flashes, by mid season Charles was firmly faster but Seb did have a fight back late in the season and made it competitive again.
And of course 2020 Charles beat him like Max vs Albon, just ugly, Ricciardo circa 2014 was nowhere near that bad despite the end stats.

Is Vettel overly affected by his emotional state/motivation? Because some things just don't compute with him.