[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[the EDGE]

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification Diffuser. McLaren are permitted to make any changes necessary to fit the Merc Pu as long as they convince the FIA the change is needed, and not simply being done for a performance gain.

using your example for instance, if McLaren have to move a compressor then chances are something will already be in the place where that compressor needs to go, so that in turn will need moving and so on like one of those little picture puzzles with the moving squares we used to play with as kids (well if your as old as me anyway!)

Who's to say the final picture of the instillation won't have filled that little gap left behind, or that little gap can't result in a tighter engine cover which is free to change without token use

Sure, McLaren won't be able to start from scratch or make all the changes/gains they would like too, but like everything in f1 (including young driver tests), the rules are there for interpretation & manipulation. I'm sure McLaren will do everything they can to assure the FIA the changes they need to make are necessary for instillation, for the best performance gains they can get away with. That is after all the job of every F1 technical director

Sorry I was refering to the Renault PU presently having the turbo's compressor behind the PU where Merc has it in front. That Key has already said publically that the FIA are preventing him doing everything he would like to do or could possibly do to improve the aero around the PU. He said something along those lines.

Key’s comments in regards to this subject:

“In normal times you’d install it and use the benefits of a tighter package – which is what you get with the architecture of Mercedes engine – to the full. Whereas we’ve had to make minimal changes to our car to allow us to effectively put a Mercedes engine in our car designed for our current engine.”

“So whilst that’s been very well discussed with the FIA, we’ve come to a good agreement on how to keep those changes realistic for us, but also within the bounds of minimal changes, that has worked. But typically, you wouldn’t do that. You’d go further than that and exploit it a little bit more. So there’s been a few compromises there.”

I believe he means that they can’t take full advantage of the new architecture because the chassis is frozen, but even if they would have 2 tokens available, they probably wouldn’t have been able to take full advantage of it either.


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That’s definitely true that even with 2 tokens scope to take full advantage with the chassis in general would still be limited, but I read it as although compromises have been made, the FIA have still given them a ‘good agreement to make things realistic’ so I would expect the packaging of PU/cooling and integration etc. to be pretty well optimised, not just squeezed in

[diffuser]

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification Diffuser. McLaren are permitted to make any changes necessary to fit the Merc Pu as long as they convince the FIA the change is needed, and not simply being done for a performance gain.

using your example for instance, if McLaren have to move a compressor then chances are something will already be in the place where that compressor needs to go, so that in turn will need moving and so on like one of those little picture puzzles with the moving squares we used to play with as kids (well if your as old as me anyway!)

Who's to say the final picture of the instillation won't have filled that little gap left behind, or that little gap can't result in a tighter engine cover which is free to change without token use

Sure, McLaren won't be able to start from scratch or make all the changes/gains they would like too, but like everything in f1 (including young driver tests), the rules are there for interpretation & manipulation. I'm sure McLaren will do everything they can to assure the FIA the changes they need to make are necessary for instillation, for the best performance gains they can get away with. That is after all the job of every F1 technical director

Sorry I was refering to the Renault PU presently having the turbo's compressor behind the PU where Merc has it in front. That Key has already said publically that the FIA are preventing him doing everything he would like to do or could possibly do to improve the aero around the PU. He said something along those lines.

Key’s comments in regards to this subject:

“In normal times you’d install it and use the benefits of a tighter package – which is what you get with the architecture of Mercedes engine – to the full. Whereas we’ve had to make minimal changes to our car to allow us to effectively put a Mercedes engine in our car designed for our current engine.”

“So whilst that’s been very well discussed with the FIA, we’ve come to a good agreement on how to keep those changes realistic for us, but also within the bounds of minimal changes, that has worked. But typically, you wouldn’t do that. You’d go further than that and exploit it a little bit more. So there’s been a few compromises there.”

I believe he means that they can’t take full advantage of the new architecture because the chassis is frozen, but even if they would have 2 tokens available, they probably wouldn’t have been able to take full advantage of it either.


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Thanks!

[mwillems]

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from moving a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification Diffuser. McLaren are permitted to make any changes necessary to fit the Merc Pu as long as they convince the FIA the change is needed, and not simply being done for a performance gain.

using your example for instance, if McLaren have to move a compressor then chances are something will already be in the place where that compressor needs to go, so that in turn will need moving and so on like one of those little picture puzzles with the moving squares we used to play with as kids (well if your as old as me anyway!)

Who's to say the final picture of the instillation won't have filled that little gap left behind, or that little gap can't result in a tighter engine cover which is free to change without token use

Sure, McLaren won't be able to start from scratch or make all the changes/gains they would like too, but like everything in f1 (including young driver tests), the rules are there for interpretation & manipulation. I'm sure McLaren will do everything they can to assure the FIA the changes they need to make are necessary for instillation, for the best performance gains they can get away with. That is after all the job of every F1 technical director

Sorry I was refering to the Renault PU presently having the turbo's compressor behind the PU where Merc has it in front. That Key has already said publically that the FIA are preventing him doing everything he would like to do or could possibly do to improve the aero around the PU. He said something along those lines.

Mclaren are not likely to say that they got a really good deal, especially if they extract a lot of time next year, the whole field will say we took the p*ss out of the FIA and the situation - worse still, another year of Darth Piekius saying "Karma for RP".

They are able to do work on some of the packaging, just not all. The sidepods are limited in that the radiators can't be altered much unless we need to increase cooling (Highly doubtful), but everywhere else around the engine has more scope including the other cooling systems on the car. The packaging can be improved, just not to the maximum.

The tokens are not there to reduce cost. They are their to allow a restricted amount of performance gains in the face of changes Mclaren are making, as well as dealing with complaints that teams didn't want to carry over every inherent flaw to the next years car - a statement that Ross Brawn himself has made, and he is the driver of the token system. Performance restrictions frames every aspect of the tokens legislation, including Mclaren, who have no tokens, against the backdrop of cost saving, not because of it.

In any case, it's a moot point, I only raised this whole subject because I disagree with SmallSoldiers assertion (And one that seems to have been perpetuated until now) that Mclaren are at a disadvantage in the token system, as I don't see any evidence for that at all. Actually, I feel like this situation is at worse a fair deal for us, and at best a good opportunity.

[diffuser]

He does say
Sorry I was refering to the Renault PU presently having the turbo's compressor behind the PU where Merc has it in front. That Key has already said publically that the FIA are preventing him doing everything he would like to do or could possibly do to improve the aero around the PU. He said something along those lines.

Key’s comments in regards to this subject:

“In normal times you’d install it and use the benefits of a tighter package – which is what you get with the architecture of Mercedes engine – to the full. Whereas we’ve had to make minimal changes to our car to allow us to effectively put a Mercedes engine in our car designed for our current engine.”

“So whilst that’s been very well discussed with the FIA, we’ve come to a good agreement on how to keep those changes realistic for us, but also within the bounds of minimal changes, that has worked. But typically, you wouldn’t do that. You’d go further than that and exploit it a little bit more. So there’s been a few compromises there.”

I believe he means that they can’t take full advantage of the new architecture because the chassis is frozen, but even if they would have 2 tokens available, they probably wouldn’t have been able to take full advantage of it either.


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yeah I have no idea if by “So whilst that’s been very well discussed with the FIA, we’ve come to a good agreement on how to keep those changes realistic for us, but also within the bounds of minimal changes, that has worked. But typically, you wouldn’t do that. You’d go further than that and exploit it a little bit more. So there’s been a few compromises there.” he means with two more tokens or Just "no token restrictions". Obviously, "No restriction" means you're ownly limited by time,money and ideas.

[the EDGE]

yeah I have no idea if by “So whilst that’s been very well discussed with the FIA, we’ve come to a good agreement on how to keep those changes realistic for us, but also within the bounds of minimal changes, that has worked. But typically, you wouldn’t do that. You’d go further than that and exploit it a little bit more. So there’s been a few compromises there.” he means with two more tokens or Just "no token restrictions". Obviously, "No restriction" means you're ownly limited by time,money and ideas.

I guess either would be better, but as you say, obviously no restrictions would be best

The differing layouts of both PUs are going to require various changes to the packaging for cooling etc. Will be interesting if this results in changers to the air box & radiators

Is it possible to reduce the size/position of these within agreement

[Mansell89]

Guys I’ve posted this in the Merc PU thread but some of my fellow McLaren lovers might know the answer:

Very amateur PU question from me guys but as a McLaren fan intrigued by their return to Mercedes power, I’m trying to nip in the bud some things I read back at the start of the hybrid era:

In 2014, there was a bit of chatter about customer teams not knowing how to maximise the PU performance in the same way as a works team- are we now in a time where the FIA strongly regulates the usage and software shares from works to customer?

In 2014 I believe McLaren were still a Mobil fuel partner. With Mercedes being in great synergy with Petronas, I’m led to believe that the works team generated far better/more efficient performance using Petronas and that McLaren may have hindered themselves using Mobil that year- is this correct in any way? And with that in mind, is it now the case that all customers get the same fuels and lubricants as the works provider? (ie, use Petronas even if sponsored by Gulf, for example)

There was that podcast a few years ago from the ex Lotus guy who talked about engine modes and that there was an occasion where they were given a mode mid-race to fight a Merc rival that the drivers reported to be far better than anything they’d had before but that the Merc engineer wouldn’t tell them what it was or how it was achieved, and I suppose that really lit my interest in the subject, especially when McLaren announced they were going to be a Merc partner again.

[diffuser]

Guys I’ve posted this in the Merc PU thread but some of my fellow McLaren lovers might know the answer:

1- FIA strongly regulates the usage and software shares from works to customer?

2- is it now the case that all customers get the same fuels and lubricants as the works provider? (ie, use Petronas even if sponsored by Gulf, for example)

3- engine modes.

1- disqualified if it is different. So yes strongly regulated.

2- manufacturers has to supply fuel if requested. Customer can opt out.

3- mid 2020 we switched to only 1 PU mode per manufacturer per track. The mode had to be the same across all customers and works. Verified by FIA. In 2021 will see 5 PU modes for the whole season. Again, the modes have to be the same for everyone that uses that PU and verified by FIA.

[Mansell89]

Guys I’ve posted this in the Merc PU thread but some of my fellow McLaren lovers might know the answer:

1- FIA strongly regulates the usage and software shares from works to customer?

2- is it now the case that all customers get the same fuels and lubricants as the works provider? (ie, use Petronas even if sponsored by Gulf, for example)

3- engine modes.

1- disqualified if it is different. So yes strongly regulated.

2- manufacturers has to supply fuel if requested. Customer can opt out.

3- mid 2020 we switched to only 1 PU mode per manufacturer per track. The mode had to be the same across all customers and works. Verified by FIA. In 2021 will see 5 PU modes for the whole season. Again, the modes have to be the same for everyone that uses that PU and verified by FIA.

Thanks Diffuser

Wow I didn’t realise the fuel element was still our choice! Anyone know if we will use Petronas as per the Merc works team?

[ScottR267]

Guys I’ve posted this in the Merc PU thread but some of my fellow McLaren lovers might know the answer:

1- FIA strongly regulates the usage and software shares from works to customer?

2- is it now the case that all customers get the same fuels and lubricants as the works provider? (ie, use Petronas even if sponsored by Gulf, for example)

3- engine modes.

1- disqualified if it is different. So yes strongly regulated.

2- manufacturers has to supply fuel if requested. Customer can opt out.

3- mid 2020 we switched to only 1 PU mode per manufacturer per track. The mode had to be the same across all customers and works. Verified by FIA. In 2021 will see 5 PU modes for the whole season. Again, the modes have to be the same for everyone that uses that PU and verified by FIA.

Thanks Diffuser

Wow I didn’t realise the fuel element was still our choice! Anyone know if we will use Petronas as per the Merc works team?

I would suspect we would do, especially as we do not have a fuel and lubricant supplier for the F1 side of things. Gulf is purely a sponsorship thing for the F1 team but provides lubricants for the automotive side.

[billamend]

[CjC]

Top man (kid ) Lando

[Darth-Piekus]

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification Diffuser. McLaren are permitted to make any changes necessary to fit the Merc Pu as long as they convince the FIA the change is needed, and not simply being done for a performance gain.

using your example for instance, if McLaren have to move a compressor then chances are something will already be in the place where that compressor needs to go, so that in turn will need moving and so on like one of those little picture puzzles with the moving squares we used to play with as kids (well if your as old as me anyway!)

Who's to say the final picture of the instillation won't have filled that little gap left behind, or that little gap can't result in a tighter engine cover which is free to change without token use

Sure, McLaren won't be able to start from scratch or make all the changes/gains they would like too, but like everything in f1 (including young driver tests), the rules are there for interpretation & manipulation. I'm sure McLaren will do everything they can to assure the FIA the changes they need to make are necessary for instillation, for the best performance gains they can get away with. That is after all the job of every F1 technical director

Sorry I was refering to the Renault PU presently having the turbo's compressor behind the PU where Merc has it in front. That Key has already said publically that the FIA are preventing him doing everything he would like to do or could possibly do to improve the aero around the PU. He said something along those lines.

Mclaren are not likely to say that they got a really good deal, especially if they extract a lot of time next year, the whole field will say we took the p*ss out of the FIA and the situation - worse still, another year of Darth Piekius saying "Karma for RP".

They are able to do work on some of the packaging, just not all. The sidepods are limited in that the radiators can't be altered much unless we need to increase cooling (Highly doubtful), but everywhere else around the engine has more scope including the other cooling systems on the car. The packaging can be improved, just not to the maximum.

The tokens are not there to reduce cost. They are their to allow a restricted amount of performance gains in the face of changes Mclaren are making, as well as dealing with complaints that teams didn't want to carry over every inherent flaw to the next years car - a statement that Ross Brawn himself has made, and he is the driver of the token system. Performance restrictions frames every aspect of the tokens legislation, including Mclaren, who have no tokens, against the backdrop of cost saving, not because of it.

In any case, it's a moot point, I only raised this whole subject because I disagree with SmallSoldiers assertion (And one that seems to have been perpetuated until now) that Mclaren are at a disadvantage in the token system, as I don't see any evidence for that at all. Actually, I feel like this situation is at worse a fair deal for us, and at best a good opportunity.

First of all leave me out of this discussion. It's not my fault Racing Point has an illegal car as Cyril and the whole of F1 already claimed. It is the cold hard truth either you like it or not. Instead of being disqualified they were let to run. It's not a matter of karma or anything. They will have huge problems when they will be forced to create their own car or most of their own car from 2021 and onwards.

[diffuser]

The structure change freeze of the 2020 cars are for cost savings. The tokens are a way to equally allow some changes, limited bypass of the freeze. You don't have the tokens without the freeze. So they are both part of the cost freeze for 2021.

[diffuser]

I think only RP's brakes were ruled on. I have no proof but I think Cyril stopped pursuing RP in exchange for favours. Like the Alonso test and the PU mode limitation.

[mwillems]

The structure change freeze of the 2020 cars are for cost savings. The tokens are a way to equally allow some changes, limited bypass of the freeze. You don't have the tokens without the freeze. So they are both part of the cost freeze for 2021.

This is probably a tomato/tomAto moment. But... One is a cost freeze, the other is a small exception to it to react to a contractual necessity on the part of one of the teams, as well as an opportunity to respond to teams who complained they didn't want to carry over their more serious flaws.

Ross Brawn:

"The problem with the freeze was that we had a team that was changing an engine, McLaren. You can't ignore that, you can't say that you can't change your engine.

"So we had to find a fair system that was going to accommodate their need to make the change.

"We also recognise that some teams may have a flaw in their car that they shouldn't have to live with for two years. The token system allows them just that little bit of scope to put right what they had wrong."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toke ... n/4807652/


I'm on a diet, and I'm doing well, I've lost 2 kg already. I have every intention of sticking to my diet. But my partner has come home with some donuts. I want to say no, but I can't, so I eat it. It's not part of my weight loss programme, it's my very tasty exception but I resolve to eat no more donuts!

Mclaren bought a nice donut (caramel filling, icing and nuts on the top), and then everyone else wanted one too, and then they got back on their diet.