Alonso drives Renault R25 at Yas Marina Circuit

[Zynerji]

People were trackside watching, and the car still looked faster in their eyes. So no cameras factor there.

Refuelling days were not bad. It's just as confusing as today's strategy. Nowadays the cars are not going all out and never will. I don't find that more exciting. When you are pushing 100% there will be more errors and more failures, fatigue sets in etc. The cars will also carry less fuel at any given time, and will be smaller.
If the current cars had refuelling the tanks would be considerably smaller than they are now.
The rule that made the cars 2m wide was also a mistake. 1800mm wide was not an issue, and those cars still looked more menacing that these fat whale cars we have today.
Someone needs to make an alternate series that competes at F1 level. V10, LNG power, 150kg less, KERS, (no mguh) refuelling cells etc. It would steal F1's thunder.

I agree. Although, I might migrate to an inline 5 (same v10 sound, 1/2 the parts).

Yea!! And riveted aluminium tubs! To decide who are boys and who are men!

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

I believe the 2020 C8 500HP is $60k, and NA...

[Jolle]

I agree. Although, I might migrate to an inline 5 (same v10 sound, 1/2 the parts).

Yea!! And riveted aluminium tubs! To decide who are boys and who are men!

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

I believe the 2020 C8 500HP is $60k, and NA...

Yeah... that engine is so old that it’s almost unsellable in Europe.

[Zynerji]

People were trackside watching, and the car still looked faster in their eyes. So no cameras factor there.

Refuelling days were not bad. It's just as confusing as today's strategy. Nowadays the cars are not going all out and never will. I don't find that more exciting. When you are pushing 100% there will be more errors and more failures, fatigue sets in etc. The cars will also carry less fuel at any given time, and will be smaller.
If the current cars had refuelling the tanks would be considerably smaller than they are now.
The rule that made the cars 2m wide was also a mistake. 1800mm wide was not an issue, and those cars still looked more menacing that these fat whale cars we have today.
Someone needs to make an alternate series that competes at F1 level. V10, LNG power, 150kg less, KERS, (no mguh) refuelling cells etc. It would steal F1's thunder.

I agree. Although, I might migrate to an inline 5 (same v10 sound, 1/2 the parts).

Yea!! And riveted aluminium tubs! To decide who are boys and who are men!

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

Maybe McLaren would sell an order of 30 MP-23's reworked for a centrifugally supercharged Chevrolet Vortec 3700 destroked 2liter L5??? *dream*

[V12-POWER]

People were trackside watching, and the car still looked faster in their eyes. So no cameras factor there.

Refuelling days were not bad. It's just as confusing as today's strategy. Nowadays the cars are not going all out and never will. I don't find that more exciting. When you are pushing 100% there will be more errors and more failures, fatigue sets in etc. The cars will also carry less fuel at any given time, and will be smaller.
If the current cars had refuelling the tanks would be considerably smaller than they are now.
The rule that made the cars 2m wide was also a mistake. 1800mm wide was not an issue, and those cars still looked more menacing that these fat whale cars we have today.
Someone needs to make an alternate series that competes at F1 level. V10, LNG power, 150kg less, KERS, (no mguh) refuelling cells etc. It would steal F1's thunder.

I agree. Although, I might migrate to an inline 5 (same v10 sound, 1/2 the parts).

Yea!! And riveted aluminium tubs! To decide who are boys and who are men!

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

When did the “road relevancy” crap appeared for the first time?

I see this being brought up everywhere, this started to happen recently

Also why road relevant? why can’t we race closed cockpit cars F1 with headlights and blinkers then?

F1 has never been road relevant, it has never been the test bed for new technologies for road car use. 7 years of hybrid engines and there’s still no road cars with an mgu h, mgu k and all that complex stuff. And current road car hybrid engines aren’t even based off F1 systems

So F1 can race NA engines all they want.

I have observed and it’s mostly newer fans who come from mainstream sources (Netflix, YouTube) that believe the road relevancy thing is actually real

That kind of fan also fails to answer the question “how many spark plugs does a 4 cylinder Diesel engine have” so when they say “road relevancy” they probably have no clue what they are talking about

Nothing worse than gettin married to a false idea, F1 has no bounds and never had

[Jolle]

I agree. Although, I might migrate to an inline 5 (same v10 sound, 1/2 the parts).

Yea!! And riveted aluminium tubs! To decide who are boys and who are men!

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

When did the “road relevancy” crap appeared for the first time?

I see this being brought up everywhere, this started to happen recently

Also why road relevant? why can’t we race closed cockpit cars F1 with headlights and blinkers then?

F1 has never been road relevant, it has never been the test bed for new technologies for road car use. 7 years of hybrid engines and there’s still no road cars with an mgu h, mgu k and all that complex stuff. And current road car hybrid engines aren’t even based off F1 systems

So F1 can race NA engines all they want.

I have observed and it’s mostly newer fans who come from mainstream sources (Netflix, YouTube) that believe the road relevancy thing is actually real

That kind of fan also fails to answer the question “how many spark plugs does a 4 cylinder Diesel engine have” so when they say “road relevancy” they probably have no clue what they are talking about

Nothing worse than gettin married to a false idea, F1 has no bounds and never had

The idea of road relevance came from the manufactures in F1, who are there to sell cars. They worked together with the FIA and FOM to come to a formula that we have now. So, although you think a hybrid turbo engine is madness, Daimler, FCA, Honda and Renault didn't want to go on with F1 without.

[Mogster]

Yea!! And riveted aluminium tubs! To decide who are boys and who are men!

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

When did the “road relevancy” crap appeared for the first time?

I see this being brought up everywhere, this started to happen recently

Also why road relevant? why can’t we race closed cockpit cars F1 with headlights and blinkers then?

F1 has never been road relevant, it has never been the test bed for new technologies for road car use. 7 years of hybrid engines and there’s still no road cars with an mgu h, mgu k and all that complex stuff. And current road car hybrid engines aren’t even based off F1 systems

So F1 can race NA engines all they want.

I have observed and it’s mostly newer fans who come from mainstream sources (Netflix, YouTube) that believe the road relevancy thing is actually real

That kind of fan also fails to answer the question “how many spark plugs does a 4 cylinder Diesel engine have” so when they say “road relevancy” they probably have no clue what they are talking about

Nothing worse than gettin married to a false idea, F1 has no bounds and never had

The idea of road relevance came from the manufactures in F1, who are there to sell cars. They worked together with the FIA and FOM to come to a formula that we have now. So, although you think a hybrid turbo engine is madness, Daimler, FCA, Honda and Renault didn't want to go on with F1 without.

Yes generally the motorsports division also has to convince the CEO or board members there’s a business case for participating. Creating technology that can filter down to consumer products is a common angle, training technical staff is another.

[Big Tea]

When did the “road relevancy” crap appeared for the first time?

I see this being brought up everywhere, this started to happen recently

Also why road relevant? why can’t we race closed cockpit cars F1 with headlights and blinkers then?

F1 has never been road relevant, it has never been the test bed for new technologies for road car use. 7 years of hybrid engines and there’s still no road cars with an mgu h, mgu k and all that complex stuff. And current road car hybrid engines aren’t even based off F1 systems

So F1 can race NA engines all they want.

I have observed and it’s mostly newer fans who come from mainstream sources (Netflix, YouTube) that believe the road relevancy thing is actually real

That kind of fan also fails to answer the question “how many spark plugs does a 4 cylinder Diesel engine have” so when they say “road relevancy” they probably have no clue what they are talking about

Nothing worse than gettin married to a false idea, F1 has no bounds and never had

The idea of road relevance came from the manufactures in F1, who are there to sell cars. They worked together with the FIA and FOM to come to a formula that we have now. So, although you think a hybrid turbo engine is madness, Daimler, FCA, Honda and Renault didn't want to go on with F1 without.

Yes generally the motorsports division also has to convince the CEO or board members there’s a business case for participating. Creating technology that can filter down to consumer products is a common angle, training technical staff is another.

I think perhaps we are using the wrong terminology. Manufacturers have said they want some benefit to their core business from F1, and we think road relevant as in build this and put it in our road car, where as Honda gave reasons of training and problem solving for engineers.
There is no doubt things developed for motorsport do get integrated into road cars I think it is the way the problems are looked at and things discovered while doing it is the real transfer.

A season of F1 racing with a concept or device is probably equivalent to several years of road car progress as a problem this week end is often sorted by next week end while in the 'real world' it would take a month to get the drawings altered.

Concept vehicles have to have a target while being kept relevant. Something that looks like the jetson's car is fine to show off as long as someone else does not have next years Tesla.

[Zynerji]

The idea of road relevance came from the manufactures in F1, who are there to sell cars. They worked together with the FIA and FOM to come to a formula that we have now. So, although you think a hybrid turbo engine is madness, Daimler, FCA, Honda and Renault didn't want to go on with F1 without.

Yes generally the motorsports division also has to convince the CEO or board members there’s a business case for participating. Creating technology that can filter down to consumer products is a common angle, training technical staff is another.

I think perhaps we are using the wrong terminology. Manufacturers have said they want some benefit to their core business from F1, and we think road relevant as in build this and put it in our road car, where as Honda gave reasons of training and problem solving for engineers.
There is no doubt things developed for motorsport do get integrated into road cars I think it is the way the problems are looked at and things discovered while doing it is the real transfer.

A season of F1 racing with a concept or device is probably equivalent to several years of road car progress as a problem this week end is often sorted by next week end while in the 'real world' it would take a month to get the drawings altered.

Concept vehicles have to have a target while being kept relevant. Something that looks like the jetson's car is fine to show off as long as someone else does not have next years Tesla.

I've said this before, but the Hybrid Operating Strategies that they have discovered over the years is probably the single most road-relevant tech to come out of F1.

[strad]

@V12-POWER : RIGHT ON!!!!!!

[Big Tea]

@V12-POWER : RIGHT ON!!!!!!

I think Honda are thinking V 270 and Toyota V 500.

Volt that is

[V12-POWER]

Yea!! And riveted aluminium tubs! To decide who are boys and who are men!

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

When did the “road relevancy” crap appeared for the first time?

I see this being brought up everywhere, this started to happen recently

Also why road relevant? why can’t we race closed cockpit cars F1 with headlights and blinkers then?

F1 has never been road relevant, it has never been the test bed for new technologies for road car use. 7 years of hybrid engines and there’s still no road cars with an mgu h, mgu k and all that complex stuff. And current road car hybrid engines aren’t even based off F1 systems

So F1 can race NA engines all they want.

I have observed and it’s mostly newer fans who come from mainstream sources (Netflix, YouTube) that believe the road relevancy thing is actually real

That kind of fan also fails to answer the question “how many spark plugs does a 4 cylinder Diesel engine have” so when they say “road relevancy” they probably have no clue what they are talking about

Nothing worse than gettin married to a false idea, F1 has no bounds and never had

The idea of road relevance came from the manufactures in F1, who are there to sell cars. They worked together with the FIA and FOM to come to a formula that we have now. So, although you think a hybrid turbo engine is madness, Daimler, FCA, Honda and Renault didn't want to go on with F1 without.

I’m willing to bet they would definitely step back to simpler engines if they had a choice

And honestly, most of the people who own a Renault or a Mercedes have no regards for F1 at all. At least 90% of people I talk with and own either a Honda or a merc or even a Renault. Not Ferrari cause rich people don’t live here. For Mercedes owners, the fact mercedes has been dominating for years doesn’t even make them flinch, “oh cool” is what most say

The real reason why manufacturers “opted” for hybrids is lame, and it’s callled politics, within the companies themselves.

Today what appeals to the masses are “green” engines, so they choose to go that way, I mean, that’s what anyone would do. But if the masses do a 180 tomorrow, they will follow too

In 2005 there where 7 manufacturers. Cosworth, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault

Arguably, the cutting edge technology available back then is now almost readily available for most big shops, so instead of 7 you might get even more, if there’s a budget cap for engine development

I’m really happy that Renault brought the R25 and put Alonso to drive it. The way things happened make me believe they wanted to deliver a message

If F1 hasn’t become fully gutless, expect NA screamers to come back OR a new series to emerge that fulfills what F1 lacks today

[CMSMJ1]

The solution would be to reduce the footprint of the cars we have today.

The large floor allows massive df and shrinking these basic measurements by 10% would deliver fast, small and good looking cars.

The R25 was great to watch.

[JordanMugen]

You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12

I think the Audi R8 is still available with the 5.2 V10. Has it been discontinued already?

Now that the Audi R8 Facelift is here, there are several model variants to choose from. There’s the standard Audi R8 V10 Quattro, the R8 V10 Performance Quattro, the R8 RWD (Rear-Wheel Drive) and Spyder versions of each.

https://www.quattrodaily.com/2021-audi- ... australia/

Sounds like the Audi R8 is still in production complete with old-fashioned V10 ICE. Sounds like the R8, and its V10, isn't due to be axed until 2023.

Maybe the Honda NSX has poor sales because of other reasons, however maybe the poor sales are indeed due to the combinaton of a twin-turbo V6 and multi-motor hybrid system, neither of which sportscar buyers want however effective they are? Perhaps a V10 naturally aspirated NSX really would sell better!?

Now, if sportscar enthusiasts prefers a V10 engine to a twin-turbo V6 and non-hybrid to hybrid and therefore go and put their order down for a Audi R8 instead of a Honda NSX, could one guess that Formula One enthusiasts may prefer the very same trade-off of attributes and likewise prefer V10 to V6TT and non-hybrid to hybrid?

[JordanMugen]

In the real world, no NA engines are used anymore. You can’t buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes or McLaren with a NA engine. The only Ferrari is a V12, while even their last halo car has a turbo. You can still buy a 1.0 Polo if you want something atmospheric.

I thought of another example:



The 2021 Subaru BRZ features 227bhp and 7500rpm of 100% naturally aspirated 2.4 litre goodness. Same stroke as the old 2.0L, but a bigger bore for stronger torque and no more torque dip. A good bit of kit!

If it had a 1.5-1.6L turbocharged engine it just wouldn't be the same , thankfully Subaru and Toyota are willing to give affordable sportscar enthusiasts what they want: lots of revs, (comparatively) plenty of displacement, and lots of fun, a modern day E30 M3 if you like!

The rival Mazda MX-5 also comes with a 2.0 atmospheric unit which produces 180hp @ 7000rpm, and is generally considered the far more enjoyable vehicle compared to its twin Fiat 124 Abarth which produces 170hp @ 5500rpm from a turbo lump but doesn't rev out. Same goes for 2020 Porsche 718 Cayman GTS with the 4.0 atmo being considered more enjoyable than the 2020 Porsche 718 Cayman S with the 2.5 turbo and the examples go on and on.

Since Formula One, like the Toyota 86, Subaru BRZ, Mazda MX-5, Audi R8, Ferrari 812 and Porsche GT3/GT4 et al. (which are all atmospheric ICEs), cater specifically to motoring enthusiasts and give them what they want, surely the same considerations apply to F1 and atmospheric engines are thus the obvious choice to give F1 enthusiasts what they (largely) want?

The idea of road relevance came from the manufactures in F1, who are there to sell cars. They worked together with the FIA and FOM to come to a formula that we have now. So, although you think a hybrid turbo engine is madness, Daimler, FCA, Honda and Renault didn't want to go on with F1 without.

At the same time, these major manufacturers knowingly eliminated Gibson, AER, Judd, Mechachrome, Cosworth et al. from feasibly being able to produce a Formula One power unit.

Seems rather like a suspicious cartel.

The idea of road relevance came from the manufactures in F1, who are there to sell cars.

To me, this is enough road relevance, with a structural V12 just like the Grand Prix car :


Surely the relevance should filter down from F1 car to road car, and not up from the Honda Insight to the McLaren-Honda?

[strad]

I don't know whether the BRZ is a good or bad example.
I'm pretty sure you realize it was built with the sole goal of being fun to drive with easily induced oversteer but with enough under-steer to scare you before you hurt yourself. Much like those Triumphs and MGs of old.