Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[lh13]

The fact that Hamilton fans need to prove his greatness 10 times a day shows how desperate they are. Hamilton has driven exceptionally well the past few years, but the only times he really had to 'fight' for the title were 2007, 2008 and 2016. Take it however you want, or not.

[NathanOlder]

The fact that Hamilton fans need to prove his greatness 10 times a day shows how desperate they are. Hamilton has driven exceptionally well the past few years, but the only times he really had to 'fight' for the title were 2007, 2008 and 2016. Take it however you want, or not.

07 and 08, yep , fair enough. Was a fight. I'm just wondering why 16 was a fight, yet 14 and 15 weren't ?

[Phil]

I'm not sure what the argument is here. Vettel won 4 WDC fair and square. He didn't win it alone, he won it as a team, just like Hamilton has won 7.

It's always a package deal, it's always a team effort.

If you want to argue who's the more talented driver or if there has been equal opportunity for both drivers, we're going to be here for a long time, because you can never look at a driver in isolation. Given Vettel has won 4 and led two seasons (2017 & 2018) that he didn't win, I'd say Vettel has had more chances to win multiple championships than many other drivers on the grid.

Hamilton should have won 2007 as well as 2012 and 2016. Arguably, 2010 he had his chances too, but 2007, 2012 and 2016 were his to lose, if it hadn't been for reliability. Arguably, Alonso should have won 2010 & 2013. It's just the luck of the draw sometimes and you have to applaud Vettel & RedBull for the 2010-2013 as well as Hamilton & Mercedes for 2014-2020.

That's just the nature of it.

I don't think this topic is to undermine Vettels achievement in any way. If you do that for the years where he had won a championship, then you also have to undermine somewhat of Lewis's championships too. I somewhat get the logic that some think that Hamilton is the more deserving driver to achieve the 7 titles given his track record against arguably stronger team-mates, but it will never quite be the same "equal fight" because they all face their separate challenges in their own team against their own team mates.

[Just_a_fan]

The fact that Hamilton fans need to prove his greatness 10 times a day shows how desperate they are. Hamilton has driven exceptionally well the past few years, but the only times he really had to 'fight' for the title were 2007, 2008 and 2016. Take it however you want, or not.

07 and 08, yep , fair enough. Was a fight. I'm just wondering why 16 was a fight, yet 14 and 15 weren't ?

Same with Michael. 2001, 2002 and 2004 were easy walkovers and yet he is lauded for his 7 titles.

It's the double standards that annoy me.

[raymondu999]

Most importantly — not directed to anyone in particular but to the entire thread as a whole — why is it so important to prove to someone you’ve never seen/met that your PoV is right and theirs is wrong lol.

Every driver has fans, fanboys and haters. I know who I support — and I know I’ve had conversations with his haters — but at the end kf the day, their opinion isn’t gonna matter to me nor mine to then lol

[Moore77]

The fact that Hamilton fans need to prove his greatness 10 times a day shows how desperate they are. Hamilton has driven exceptionally well the past few years, but the only times he really had to 'fight' for the title were 2007, 2008 and 2016. Take it however you want, or not.

07 and 08, yep , fair enough. Was a fight. I'm just wondering why 16 was a fight, yet 14 and 15 weren't ?

Same with Michael. 2001, 2002 and 2004 were easy walkovers and yet he is lauded for his 7 titles.

It's the double standards that annoy me.

Where did @lh13 blindly say Michael is great but Hamilton is not? You are making up your own frustration. Can you not handle Hamilton arguments without somehow bringing Michael in it? This thread is not about Michael Schumacher.

[Just_a_fan]

07 and 08, yep , fair enough. Was a fight. I'm just wondering why 16 was a fight, yet 14 and 15 weren't ?

Same with Michael. 2001, 2002 and 2004 were easy walkovers and yet he is lauded for his 7 titles.

It's the double standards that annoy me.

Where did @lh13 blindly say Michael is great but Hamilton is not? You are making up your own frustration. Can you not handle Hamilton arguments without somehow bringing Michael in it? This thread is not about Michael Schumacher.

It was a general comment. Sorry that I didn't edit out the nested quoting. Mea culpa.

[Jolle]

In the true spirit of formula one I feel like it’s who is the best constructor/team. Over the years there been many teams with long periods of domination. The driver in this case is the star striker. Mercedes now has a mighty team with one hell of a striker, as was Vettel a perfect match for the Newey/Redbull years (and Schumacher with Brawn, Senna, Prost and Lauda for Dennis, etc etc). With all of these champions on the top of their domination there was always a lot of criticism that “he wasn’t as good as <insert previous champion>”. I think it’s safe to say that in a decade time, when the internet is blasting with stories that it’s not Russell/Verstappen/Leclec but the car and Hamilton, he was a real hero.

I think Hamilton couldn’t have done what Vettel did at Redbull and I can’t see Vettel sustaining this level of performance Hamilton gets with his current team.

[ENGINE TUNER]

In the true spirit of formula one I feel like it’s who is the best constructor/team. Over the years there been many teams with long periods of domination. The driver in this case is the star striker. Mercedes now has a mighty team with one hell of a striker, as was Vettel a perfect match for the Newey/Redbull years (and Schumacher with Brawn, Senna, Prost and Lauda for Dennis, etc etc). With all of these champions on the top of their domination there was always a lot of criticism that “he wasn’t as good as <insert previous champion>”. I think it’s safe to say that in a decade time, when the internet is blasting with stories that it’s not Russell/Verstappen/Leclec but the car and Hamilton, he was a real hero.

I think Hamilton couldn’t have done what Vettel did at Redbull and I can’t see Vettel sustaining this level of performance Hamilton gets with his current team.

Hamilton most certainly could have and he would have done so making far fewer mistakes.

[PlatinumZealot]

The fact that Hamilton fans need to prove his greatness 10 times a day shows how desperate they are. Hamilton has driven exceptionally well the past few years, but the only times he really had to 'fight' for the title were 2007, 2008 and 2016. Take it however you want, or not.

The greatest of all time doesn't really have to fight hard when most of his opponents are so easily defeated. Isn't it obvious? In the cars of the same speed he saw off Alonso, Button twice, Nico three times, and Vettel twice.
I am really waiting for RedBull to come good next year just for another fight.... But i would be equaly happy for another dominant year. All the fighting in the past has me preferring easier weekends.

[PlatinumZealot]

Back on topic. Vettel's four has been shown up in his own team by a then fairly average Ricciard and an error prone sofomore driver.
Vettel is a good driver on his day but competition for the love of his team is his weakness.

[Moore77]

The fact that Hamilton fans need to prove his greatness 10 times a day shows how desperate they are. Hamilton has driven exceptionally well the past few years, but the only times he really had to 'fight' for the title were 2007, 2008 and 2016. Take it however you want, or not.

The greatest of all time doesn't really have to fight hard when most of his opponents are so easily defeated. Isn't it obvious? In the cars of the same speed he saw off Alonso, Button twice, Nico three times, and Vettel twice.
I am really waiting for RedBull to come good next year just for another fight.... But i would be equaly happy for another dominant year. All the fighting in the past has me preferring easier weekends.

When did he "see off" Vettel in the "cars of same speed" twice? If you are trying to sell off 2018 as "equal cars", then go back and look how dominant W09 was for two third of the 2018. It was only on par for first one third.
He ended on equal points with Alonso in 2007, who was driving for a team that was against him and FIA observer was placed to see if he was getting equal treatment, which in itself points to doubts of his machinery. That's not "seeing off".
If anything a great driver of Hamilton's caliber is simply picking up wins and championships from super market currently with that dominant machinery, which only enhances the "success" factor, not "greatness". It points to the greatness of Mercedes team who are building such great machines.

By his own admission Hamilton never liked testing and he only realized in 2018 that, "he needed testing" to understand tyres. So, one can easily say, it was Mercedes building cars without their star driver providing a great deal of feedback by testing it.

[hollus]

Whether Hamilton liked testing or not, he did lots and lots and lots of it. So his driver feedback was there.

[LM10]

It was just now that I opened and read a bit more detailed what this thread is about. To begin with, what an unnecessary thread.

And secondly what an idiotic implication from Brundle that without Lewis Mercedes could have not built the car which has brought him 6 titles at the time of that quote. It gets even more idiotic looking at what an impression Lewis gives. To me he is a driver totally addicted to driving, but he surely doesn't give me the impression of being particularly technology interested or knowledgeable.
There is one thing Lewis surely has done for his team besides driving exceptionally and that's up to his mental strength - putting the team together and motivating all to never give up. If that's what Brundle meant, then I agree with him.

I know Hamilton is the best driver on the grid and the best of his generation (I don't prefer comparing totally different generations), but I think it's enough to praise him for what he does best, driving. No need to give him some kind of an engineering degree.

[PlatinumZealot]

The fact that Hamilton fans need to prove his greatness 10 times a day shows how desperate they are. Hamilton has driven exceptionally well the past few years, but the only times he really had to 'fight' for the title were 2007, 2008 and 2016. Take it however you want, or not.

The greatest of all time doesn't really have to fight hard when most of his opponents are so easily defeated. Isn't it obvious? In the cars of the same speed he saw off Alonso, Button twice, Nico three times, and Vettel twice.
I am really waiting for RedBull to come good next year just for another fight.... But i would be equaly happy for another dominant year. All the fighting in the past has me preferring easier weekends.

When did he "see off" Vettel in the "cars of same speed" twice? If you are trying to sell off 2018 as "equal cars", then go back and look how dominant W09 was for two third of the 2018. It was only on par for first one third.
He ended on equal points with Alonso in 2007, who was driving for a team that was against him and FIA observer was placed to see if he was getting equal treatment, which in itself points to doubts of his machinery. That's not "seeing off".
If anything a great driver of Hamilton's caliber is simply picking up wins and championships from super market currently with that dominant machinery, which only enhances the "success" factor, not "greatness". It points to the greatness of Mercedes team who are building such great machines.

By his own admission Hamilton never liked testing and he only realized in 2018 that, "he needed testing" to understand tyres. So, one can easily say, it was Mercedes building cars without their star driver providing a great deal of feedback by testing it.

Testing is mainly to get the car reliable and correct any glaring handling problems fir the first race. The most important part is giving feedback once the racing starts. In this sense there is a very strong record of "developing" cars, especislly divas like in 2009 where he adamantly pushed the team to copy the outwash front wing, and in 2012 and 2017 for example with car balance corrections. His cars have always came out at the end of the year as sweet handling cars. Even George Russell commented at how balanced and sweet driving Hamilton had developed the handling to be over the years as lead driver. And what have Vettel and Max produced in their cars? Buck-wild rodeo mules that one of them can't even get to grips with his own creation and the other is the only one who can drive it (sometimes when he's no understeering into the barriers)... It is amazing the little inputs a driver can make to a cars long term "DNA".