Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[Moore77]

But how can you say he built his success in a way no one else has ever done ? The way you speak of Michael would suggest that Michael was designing the car himself and hiring the staff. Jean Todt hired Michael, not the other way round.

When Todt was about to be fired at the end of 1996, Michael put his foot down to save him. He brought both Brawn and Byrne. I had posted those articles in the other thread about Hamilton beating Michael's records. So yes, that is why I think he architected his own success.

Again though, Schumacher didn't sign Brawn. Jean did. Ross says in his autobiography that he was nit happy at benetton as he was promised things from Flavio that never happened, then he met with Jean in Monaco and signed for Ferrari a few months later. Jean built the team, Michael was just a very important part.

Wrong info. I know you didn't read last time. So putting it here.

Brawn on how he joined Ferrari.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... ross-brawn

“Then I had my own problems with Benetton. At the end of 1995 I’d agreed to stay, on condition that I got total responsibility over the whole engineering side. Flavio agreed to that, but ultimately he didn’t implement it. F1 is pretty incestuous, and Michael got to hear I wasn’t happy. At the same time, he wasn’t happy with the technical structure at Ferrari either. Just before Monaco in 1996 I got a call from Willi Weber, asking if I’d like a chat. That’s how it started.”

I hope you know, Willi Webber was Michael's manager at that time.

Jean Todt reveals Michael Schumacher saved his Ferrari career
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/jean-t ... 53956.html

“It was during the 1996 season after we had a few retirements that there was pressure on me to leave,” explains Todt, 74.

“But Michael said ‘if Jean leaves I leave’. They did not want him to leave. They cared much less for me but Michael made his comments clear so I stayed.”

How about the current situation at Mercedes. It seems Lewis will sign on now for 2 or 3yrs. Its widely believed that he was only going to stay if Toto stays. So does it mean Lewis built the team? Also Lewis was there before Toto, so maybe Lewis was the architect of all that? Or maybe he was just a very important part like Michael was?

So much of wrong info man. Lewis wasn't there before Toto. Niki joined first in 2012, who pursued Lewis and Toto was asked by Daimler in 2012 to join as a consultant for 2013, but Toto bargained for a share holding in the team and run it as a partner. He started at the same time that Lewis started, both having signed in 2012. There are tons of Toto's interviews/podcasts if you want to read or listen. When Daimler consulted him in 2012, he clearly told them their funding wasn't enough if they want to achieve success as they believed RRA would be a reality and they can continue with small budget. That's when the deal happened between Toto and Mercedes to join as a partner. Lewis was nowhere in picture.

2012 was also the time when Brawn hired Geoff Willis, Mike Elliott and Aldo Costa (who are the core of their design team). It was also the year when Andy Cowell was handed over the reigns of HPP and when they started the full blown work for 2014 PU. It was also the year when they let go their long term chief aerodynamicist Loic Bigoic as he didn't deliver.

Going to a dead team and rebooting and bringing success is different than simply continuing in a successful team. So Lewis and Toto's current situation IS NOT equal to Michael joining Ferrari in 1996, neither is Lewis and Toto's inter dependencies for contract extension points in anyway to Lewis building this team. So stop trying to somehow bring in an angle for Hamilton on these aspects.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/sch ... ess-brawn/
Schumacher was key to Mercedes’ championship success – Brawn

“Andrew Shovlin said to me, especially when they won their first world championship and I was talking to him about it, he said Michael had an awful lot to do with us winning this world championship.”

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff described Schumacher as “one of the founding fathers of the success we have had in the last five years.”

“There is no other driver like him and his vast experience contributed tremendously in the development of our team,” Wolff added. “He played a crucial role when we rejoined F1 and was one of the people who laid the foundation for our future success. We’re extremely grateful for everything he did for us.”

[NathanOlder]

When Todt was about to be fired at the end of 1996, Michael put his foot down to save him. He brought both Brawn and Byrne. I had posted those articles in the other thread about Hamilton beating Michael's records. So yes, that is why I think he architected his own success.

Again though, Schumacher didn't sign Brawn. Jean did. Ross says in his autobiography that he was nit happy at benetton as he was promised things from Flavio that never happened, then he met with Jean in Monaco and signed for Ferrari a few months later. Jean built the team, Michael was just a very important part.

Wrong info. I know you didn't read last time. So putting it here.

Brawn on how he joined Ferrari.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... ross-brawn

“Then I had my own problems with Benetton. At the end of 1995 I’d agreed to stay, on condition that I got total responsibility over the whole engineering side. Flavio agreed to that, but ultimately he didn’t implement it. F1 is pretty incestuous, and Michael got to hear I wasn’t happy. At the same time, he wasn’t happy with the technical structure at Ferrari either. Just before Monaco in 1996 I got a call from Willi Weber, asking if I’d like a chat. That’s how it started.”

I hope you know, Willi Webber was Michael's manager at that time.

Jean Todt reveals Michael Schumacher saved his Ferrari career
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/jean-t ... 53956.html

“It was during the 1996 season after we had a few retirements that there was pressure on me to leave,” explains Todt, 74.

“But Michael said ‘if Jean leaves I leave’. They did not want him to leave. They cared much less for me but Michael made his comments clear so I stayed.”

How about the current situation at Mercedes. It seems Lewis will sign on now for 2 or 3yrs. Its widely believed that he was only going to stay if Toto stays. So does it mean Lewis built the team? Also Lewis was there before Toto, so maybe Lewis was the architect of all that? Or maybe he was just a very important part like Michael was?

So much of wrong info man. Lewis wasn't there before Toto. Niki joined first in 2012, who pursued Lewis and Toto was asked by Daimler in 2012 to join as a consultant for 2013, but Toto bargained for a share holding in the team and run it as a partner. He started at the same time that Lewis started, both having signed in 2012. There are tons of Toto's interviews/podcasts if you want to read or listen. When Daimler consulted him in 2012, he clearly told them their funding wasn't enough if they want to achieve success as they believed RRA would be a reality and they can continue with small budget. That's when the deal happened between Toto and Mercedes to join as a partner. Lewis was nowhere in picture.

2012 was also the time when Brawn hired Geoff Willis, Mike Elliott and Aldo Costa (who are the core of their design team). It was also the year when Andy Cowell was handed over the reigns of HPP and when they started the full blown work for 2014 PU. It was also the year when they let go their long term chief aerodynamicist Loic Bigoic as he didn't deliver.

Going to a dead team and rebooting and bringing success is different than simply continuing in a successful team. So Lewis and Toto's current situation IS NOT equal to Michael joining Ferrari in 1996, neither is Lewis and Toto's inter dependencies for contract extension points in anyway to Lewis building this team. So stop trying to somehow bring in an angle for Hamilton on these aspects.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/sch ... ess-brawn/
Schumacher was key to Mercedes’ championship success – Brawn

“Andrew Shovlin said to me, especially when they won their first world championship and I was talking to him about it, he said Michael had an awful lot to do with us winning this world championship.”

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff described Schumacher as “one of the founding fathers of the success we have had in the last five years.”

“There is no other driver like him and his vast experience contributed tremendously in the development of our team,” Wolff added. “He played a crucial role when we rejoined F1 and was one of the people who laid the foundation for our future success. We’re extremely grateful for everything he did for us.”

You basically quoted me on the Brawn to Merc bit, Brawn met with Todt in Monaco , not Weber. I never disagreed that Schumacher didnt say he would quit if Jean was fired. That makes no difference to who built the team. That was just Michael stating how important Todt was to the whole success of Ferrari. Jean was the center piece, the main part. Michael and Ross were the 2nd layer.

As for Toto and Lewis, Lewis joined on the 1st of January 2013 I believe. Toto joined a month later.

As for this "Going to a dead team and rebooting and bringing success is different than simply continuing in a successful team. So Lewis and Toto's current situation IS NOT equal to Michael joining Ferrari in 1996,"

Michael joined a team that had 1 win and 11 podiums with Berger and Alesi in a 17 race season and finished 3rd in the standings.
Lewis joined a team that had 1 win and 3 wins with Rosberg and Schumacher in a 20 race season and finshed 5th in the standings.

How are you getting this as Ferrari being dead, and Mercedes being a continued successful team ? Look at the stats, Ferrari were stronger in 95 than Merc were in 2012. Stop the bias man. Schumacher is certainly in the top 5 drivers of all time, but so is Lewis. And Michael did not build the team around him! If he did that, the team would have been Schumacher. Todt asked Schumacher to join, not the other way round. Todt built the team! Ferrari went 3yrs without winning a race, Todt joins, they start improving winning at least a race each year, Michael joins, they win multiple races in a year, Brawn and Bryne join, they challenge for titles.

Jean Todt built the team . If not, please show me where Michael signed the contracts for Brawn & Co. Michael may have had his input on lots of things, but so do the top drivers today, Preferences ect. If Mercedes were trying to sign someone from Mclaren around 2013-2015 they would have asked Lewis for any info on that person. Much like Ferrari probably asked Michael about Brawn and Bryne.

Todt signed all the best, a lot of key people came from Benetton, Schumacher, Brawn, Bryne. They were all great at their jobs with Schumacher being the best driver on the grid. Well done Jean Todt YOU built the best team Ferrari ever had.

[Kingshark]

So do you beleive is an F1 driver debuts at age 28 he will be any better than at 18 or 17?

History has shown this does not hold true.

When the driver is ready for F1, he is ready. Doesn't matter the age, we can compare the rookies just the same.

You completely misunderstood my point.

A driver who debuts at the age of 28 is far less likely to improve over the next 5 years than a driver who debuts at the age of 17. That does not mean he’s going to be a better driver, that has nothing to do with it.

I would even argue that the younger rookies have proven to be better than the older rookies.

That’s because drivers who debut tend to be more talented. Drivers who make their debut at the age of 25 are usually nothing special (Vandoorne, Liuzzi).

I’m not arguing about who is better or worse. I’m saying that younger drivers have a greater potential to improve.

At the age of 17, Hamilton finished third in Formula Renault 2.0
At the age of 22, he matched/beat Alonso in his rookie season

Do you think that Hamilton was the same driver he was at 17 and at 22?

And if your answer is no, what the hell makes you think that Verstappen did not grow as a driver and a man from the age of 17 to 22?

What does Hamilton being 17 has anything to do with it? We are talking about Formula 1. Not anything before it. Hamilton could have been home playing Nintendo or whatever and not ever turning a wheel of a car before. I compare drivers when they are in F1. All i see is experience in F1 nothing more.

Think of comparing a child prodigy who made it to University at 12 years old. Why would you compare him to another twelve year old in junior highschool? It's nonsense. On the other hand it makes sense to directly compate him to another university freshman. They both had the necessary qualifications and competency to be there, and going forward their development actually cannot be predicted. There is no guarantee the prodigy will be more successful than the student who entered at a normal age

So what you’re saying is that Verstappen was a far more prodigious talent than Hamilton at the same age?

Not that I think you’re wrong, but I’m just surprised to hear an open Hamilton fan admit that.

[PlatinumZealot]

So what you’re saying is that Verstappen was a far more prodigious talent than Hamilton at the same age?

Not that I think you’re wrong, but I’m just surprised to hear an open Hamilton fan admit that.

He was a "child soldier" born and bred by racing parents just for F1, of course he surpassed whoever was before him at that age. He was ready at seventeen! Which I thougght was crazy. I changed my mind after that free practice in Japan. Anyway the same analogy of prodigal university students... Maturing early doesn't mean they will end up being ultumately better. We see this a lot in other sports. You can prepare a child or have a very telented child who matures and goes pro early. Doesn't mean their rookie years or peak years will be exceptional. Max's has been very good. Not a genius as a rookie though, but very impressive in second and third years against Daniel. Lewis was a genius as a rookie on the other hand. Standing up to a 2XWDC and two other contenders. 9 consecutive podiums.

Let's see how Max does against Sergio in race pace. That will be a good indicator of how he has matured seven years in F1.

[Moore77]

TEXT

All you have done is to deny the points I made with relevant articles with your misplaced understanding (without any evidence) and questioning me again to show contracts and all that? First please share authentic material to back up your claims and then continue questioning.

Like I mentioned, Mercedes had all the staff hired and work in progress for success, symbol of which was the Article with John Owen, the chief designer at Mercedes on THE-RACE.COM. All before Hamilton set foot.
Michael went to a Ferrari where there was no structure, like Brawn mentioned in his statement. That's a huge difference. In that article, he also mentions the progress on 2014 PU. I know you somehow want to build a desperate connection for Mercedes success to Hamilton, just with your arguments and no testimony from anyone involved in Mercedes success from the core group. That's the difference between Michael and Hamilton. Where a lot of important folks that were part renaissance, both at Ferrari and Mercedes have given testimony of the role Michael played in building success around those teams there is no one who has said similar things about Hamilton. That's the difference.

Why do you keep saying Hamilton wouldn't drive dirty to win a championship? He did that in Abu Dhabi 2016. He drove purposefully slow to back up Nico into the chasing pack. He openly refused to listen to team management. Almost compromised team result for the sake of personal gain. He wanted to win by hook or crook, just that, it didn't work in 2016 for him. If more such pressure would have come, i am sure he would have driven worse than that. He never had that pressure again, thanks to those dominant cars and a mediocre team mate.

[ringo]

Formula 1 is full of positive feedback loops. The difference in prize money distribution is absolutely enormous. The best teams also attract the most sponsors. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The biggest teams attract the best engineers, they make the best cars, and continue to dominate the sport.

As it stands right now, the gulf in resources and manpower between Mercedes and Haas is so enormous that it’s completely impossible for Haas to compete with Mercedes regardless of any regulation change. Asking Haas to compete with Mercedes is like asking a group of broke undergraduate physics students to build a spaceship that can compete with NASA. It’s impossible.

What FIA have done for 2021 is not only a regulation change, they are aiming to kill those positive feedback loops. The budget cap immediately stops Mercedes from outspending midfield teams by $250m per year. Likewise, teams who finish lower in the WCC will receive more time to develop their car in the windtunnel.

I believe that these rule changes will be the end of domination spells from one team. Don’t get me wrong, some teams will still build better cars than others, but will one team win every title and 80% of the races over a 7 year period? No, I don’t think we will see that again. It’s not possible to achieve what Mercedes achieved from 2014-2021 without some enormous advantages over most of their competitors.

This is both good and bad news for Hamilton’s legacy. The good news is that his records will never be broken. The bad news is that younger fans who never saw him race will use the unprecedented Mercedes dominance to slander and diminish his accomplishments. The stars of the future (whoever they might be) will be seen as superior because they won on a level playing field.

What would you say if hamilton dominates the budget cap era? You are assuming all of a sudden he will lose race craft and speed relative to teammates. 2007 is enough evidence that in same cars he is at least as good as Alonso the shumi slayer.

[Kingshark]

So what you’re saying is that Verstappen was a far more prodigious talent than Hamilton at the same age?

Not that I think you’re wrong, but I’m just surprised to hear an open Hamilton fan admit that.

He was a "child soldier" born and bred by racing parents just for F1, of course he surpassed whoever was before him at that age. He was ready at seventeen! Which I thougght was crazy. I changed my mind after that free practice in Japan. Anyway the same analogy of prodigal university students... Maturing early doesn't mean they will end up being ultumately better. We see this a lot in other sports. You can prepare a child or have a very telented child who matures and goes pro early. Doesn't mean their rookie years or peak years will be exceptional. Max's has been very good. Not a genius as a rookie though, but very impressive in second and third years against Daniel. Lewis was a genius as a rookie on the other hand. Standing up to a 2XWDC and two other contenders. 9 consecutive podiums.

Let's see how Max does against Sergio in race pace. That will be a good indicator of how he has matured seven years in F1.

That will certainly be a good indicator. Perez is at least as good as Bottas (probably better tbh). If Verstappen beats Perez by an equal or bigger margin than Hamilton has over Bottas, then that is a strong indicator that Verstappen is better than Hamilton.

Let’s see what the gaps between the Merc and RB teammates are next season.

[NathanOlder]

Why do you keep saying Hamilton wouldn't drive dirty to win a championship? He did that in Abu Dhabi 2016. He drove purposefully slow to back up Nico into the chasing pack. He openly refused to listen to team management. Almost compromised team result for the sake of personal gain. He wanted to win by hook or crook, just that, it didn't work in 2016 for him. If more such pressure would have come, i am sure he would have driven worse than that. He never had that pressure again, thanks to those dominant cars and a mediocre team mate.

Excuse me? You are actually trying to compare Lewis holding up his team mate, to Michael using his car as a weapon against his rivals? Or even parking the car in qualifying to block the track?! You do remember Michael doing that yes? Or have you just simply chosen to forget it? making that comparison just shows how desperate you are to lower the achievements Lewis has accomplished. And trying to credit Michael with building the whole Ferrari team is the lengths you go to, to try and raise Michael way above Lewis.

[Moore77]

Why do you keep saying Hamilton wouldn't drive dirty to win a championship? He did that in Abu Dhabi 2016. He drove purposefully slow to back up Nico into the chasing pack. He openly refused to listen to team management. Almost compromised team result for the sake of personal gain. He wanted to win by hook or crook, just that, it didn't work in 2016 for him. If more such pressure would have come, i am sure he would have driven worse than that. He never had that pressure again, thanks to those dominant cars and a mediocre team mate.

Excuse me? You are actually trying to compare Lewis holding up his team mate, to Michael using his car as a weapon against his rivals? Or even parking the car in qualifying to block the track?! You do remember Michael doing that yes? Or have you just simply chosen to forget it? making that comparison just shows how desperate you are to lower the achievements Lewis has accomplished. And trying to credit Michael with building the whole Ferrari team is the lengths you go to, to try and raise Michael way above Lewis.

I am not comparing, I am confidently saying, he did drove dirty in Abu Dhabi in 2016, regardless of how he used his car according your framework of what is dirty or not. He did try to compromise his team mate's situation unethically, put his selfish interest on top of team's and he did disrespect the team management's call. It's a fact, you might not like. As I said earlier, he wasn't put under pressure of losing the title like that ever again, which otherwise, could have resulted in similar behavior, or worse.

[NathanOlder]

Why do you keep saying Hamilton wouldn't drive dirty to win a championship? He did that in Abu Dhabi 2016. He drove purposefully slow to back up Nico into the chasing pack. He openly refused to listen to team management. Almost compromised team result for the sake of personal gain. He wanted to win by hook or crook, just that, it didn't work in 2016 for him. If more such pressure would have come, i am sure he would have driven worse than that. He never had that pressure again, thanks to those dominant cars and a mediocre team mate.

Excuse me? You are actually trying to compare Lewis holding up his team mate, to Michael using his car as a weapon against his rivals? Or even parking the car in qualifying to block the track?! You do remember Michael doing that yes? Or have you just simply chosen to forget it? making that comparison just shows how desperate you are to lower the achievements Lewis has accomplished. And trying to credit Michael with building the whole Ferrari team is the lengths you go to, to try and raise Michael way above Lewis.

I am not comparing, I am confidently saying, he did drove dirty in Abu Dhabi in 2016, regardless of how he used his car according your framework of what is dirty or not. He did try to compromise his team mate's situation unethically, put his selfish interest on top of team's and he did disrespect the team management's call. It's a fact, you might not like. As I said earlier, he wasn't put under pressure of losing the title like that ever again, which otherwise, could have resulted in similar behavior, or worse.

He disobeyed team orders, thats nothing compared to Michaels antics. I think every driver will have disobeyed team orders at some point. We dont hear anywhere near all the team radio, so its impossible to know how often team orders are broke, but surely you can agree it is a common thing in F1. To call it selfish is a little strong, as every driver is there to try and win the world championship, thats their primary goal. Mercedes had the WCC won so that wasn't at risk. If it were to cost Merc the WCC then I'd be happy to say it was a crazy decision. I dont think Lewis would ever put the teams championship hopes in jeopardy though.

[Moore77]

Excuse me? You are actually trying to compare Lewis holding up his team mate, to Michael using his car as a weapon against his rivals? Or even parking the car in qualifying to block the track?! You do remember Michael doing that yes? Or have you just simply chosen to forget it? making that comparison just shows how desperate you are to lower the achievements Lewis has accomplished. And trying to credit Michael with building the whole Ferrari team is the lengths you go to, to try and raise Michael way above Lewis.

I am not comparing, I am confidently saying, he did drove dirty in Abu Dhabi in 2016, regardless of how he used his car according your framework of what is dirty or not. He did try to compromise his team mate's situation unethically, put his selfish interest on top of team's and he did disrespect the team management's call. It's a fact, you might not like. As I said earlier, he wasn't put under pressure of losing the title like that ever again, which otherwise, could have resulted in similar behavior, or worse.

He disobeyed team orders, thats nothing compared to Michaels antics. I think every driver will have disobeyed team orders at some point. We dont hear anywhere near all the team radio, so its impossible to know how often team orders are broke, but surely you can agree it is a common thing in F1. To call it selfish is a little strong, as every driver is there to try and win the world championship, thats their primary goal. Mercedes had the WCC won so that wasn't at risk. If it were to cost Merc the WCC then I'd be happy to say it was a crazy decision. I dont think Lewis would ever put the teams championship hopes in jeopardy though.

Disobeying team order is one thing, but compromising team mate's race for the sake of winning a championship is entirely another, a criminal one. He wanted to rob his team mate's championship for himself. Mercedes valued 1-2 finishes a lot as a value for the entire organization's hard work. Compromising ot the selfish gains is obviously looked as much bigger crime. Your feelings for Hamilton is blinding you from seeing the reality that, every driver is selfish and their own interests matter more than anything else and Hamilton is no different.

[El Scorchio]

Your feelings for Hamilton is blinding you from seeing the reality...

Very ironic given you should say that, as you are behaving exactly the same way regarding Schumacher.

[Moore77]

Your feelings for Hamilton is blinding you from seeing the reality...

Very ironic given you should say that, as you are behaving exactly the same way regarding Schumacher.

Please feel free elaborate.

[cooken]

Holy actual F.

Drivers do not manage teams or create org charts / structures. Crediting either Lewis or Michael (or Vettel for that matter, you may remember him from the title of this thread) is complete and utter tripe.

[hUirEYExbN]

Hamilton and Schumacher are as good as each other, which is not as good as their respective fans think they are.
The true GOAT is Gareth Edwards, if you disagree with me I'll fight you at the bus stop.