Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[Kingshark]

So in summary these times were not more competitive than now. They had the dice thrown with rule changes and the season took a little longer to settle down. 2020 was very competitive. The midfield is stronger than it has ever been.

Midfield has always been competitive. The reason why people have only began to notice recently is because there is nothing happening at the front, so people focus more on the midfield because that’s the only place where anything interesting happens these days.

The midfield was just as competitive in 2012 as it is in 2020. The only difference is that in 2012 we had competition at the front, so no one cared about what happened to Toro Rosso.

What has happened is that Mercedes increased the gap to p2 and p3 to a very calculated and predicted level of repeatability. Hamilton's consistency exagerates the dominance. But overall F1 hasnt gotten any worse.

Of course it has. The competition at the front is at an all-time. The viewership has been decreasing for years now. Nobody apart from Hamilton fans think that Mercedes parades are good for the sport.

Shumacher dominant days to me were still more predictable. He literally smiled and waved his way to wins.

You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020

[Jolle]

Nah, that’s not even remotely close to being true.

Vettel won 4 championships on the bounce while Alonso (a superior driver) was stuck in an inferior Ferrari. The fact that Alonso was better than Vettel did not encourage Red Bull to change their driver lineup.

The fact that Hamilton is driving a Mercedes right now is zero evidence on whether he is actually the best driver on the grid. As Russell showed in Sakhir, looking good in a Mercedes is not that difficult (even without practice)

This idea that the best drivers will always end up in the best teams is a complete myth, an idealistic concept that has no basis in reality.

Having the best car in Formula 1 is mostly down to dumb luck.

Seeing this is a technical forum, formula one is who can build and race the best car. Spec series are kinda fun, but so uninteresting on a technical level for me. From the first time I watched F1 the pushing the limit on car development is so much more rewarding then the endless discussions that driver x would beat driver y in the same car.

Honest question: if all the F1 drivers were replaced by AI robots who had equal ability, so that the cars were the only thing that mattered, would you still watch F1?

I’m actually curious about your answer

Oh hell yes!
The Williams W15C was almost that, stil one of my all time favourites.

[El Scorchio]

So in summary these times were not more competitive than now. They had the dice thrown with rule changes and the season took a little longer to settle down. 2020 was very competitive. The midfield is stronger than it has ever been.

Midfield has always been competitive. The reason why people have only began to notice recently is because there is nothing happening at the front, so people focus more on the midfield because that’s the only place where anything interesting happens these days.

The midfield was just as competitive in 2012 as it is in 2020. The only difference is that in 2012 we had competition at the front, so no one cared about what happened to Toro Rosso.

What has happened is that Mercedes increased the gap to p2 and p3 to a very calculated and predicted level of repeatability. Hamilton's consistency exagerates the dominance. But overall F1 hasnt gotten any worse.

Of course it has. The competition at the front is at an all-time. The viewership has been decreasing for years now. Nobody apart from Hamilton fans think that Mercedes parades are good for the sport.

Shumacher dominant days to me were still more predictable. He literally smiled and waved his way to wins.

You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020

You've misrepresented the comparative success of Ferrari and Mercedes with just putting those numbers there to make it look far more different than it is.

A bit better/more accurate analysis paints a somewhat different picture.

There were only 85 races in the Ferrari period you mentioned, and 138 in the Mercedes period. The win tallies over the number of Grand Prix are as follows:

Ferrari- 57/85- 67%
Mercedes 102/138- 74%

So actually it's not much of a difference. Of course you also need to factor in that there was no intra team competition allowed at Ferrari, whereas there is at Mercedes. This added caveat means that Schumacher wasn't even challenged for any of the titles or race wins (where anything was actually at stake) by his own team mate, whereas at least Hamilton is. Barrichello was allowed eight victories in those five years. Almost all at the end of a season after the championship was decided

I think there's a very strong argument that given the prescribed lack of competition at Ferrari, the Ferrari/Schumacher seasons were in fact (even) less competitive than the Mercedes/Hamilton ones.

[NathanOlder]

No it has not always been like this. One team being this dominant for this long a period is something that has never been seen before in the history of this sport.

It has always been like this. Drivers miss out on WDC contention because there isn't enough top teams to offer the number of top drivers a seat. So I'll say it again, F1 has always been like this.
How often has there been more than 3 teams capable of winning a WDC in a season? Remembering that most teams like a number 1 and number 2 driver, so only 1 seat for a top driver..... answer.... not many. How many times has there been more than 3 top tier drivers on the grid in one season? a lot. So yes, F1 has always been like this.

Here’s a list of drivers that had a car capable of winning the championship from 2014-2020:

- Hamilton
- Rosberg
- Bottas
- Vettel
- Raikkonen

That’s 5 drivers in 7 years.

Now compare that to 2005-2011 (also a 7 year period):

- Hamilton
- Alonso
- Schumacher
- Massa
- Raikkonen
- Button
- Barrichello
- Vettel
- Webber
- Fisichella

That’s 10 drivers in 5 years.

Only five drivers having a shot at a WDC capable car in 7 years is completely unheard of in F1 history. You can look at any other 7 year period and the competition will be far greater. That is precisely why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era.

But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition

[Big Tea]

Honest question: if all the F1 drivers were replaced by AI robots who had equal ability, so that the cars were the only thing that mattered, would you still watch F1?

I’m actually curious about your answer

I most certainly would, but it would not be F1

[Jolle]

It has always been like this. Drivers miss out on WDC contention because there isn't enough top teams to offer the number of top drivers a seat. So I'll say it again, F1 has always been like this.
How often has there been more than 3 teams capable of winning a WDC in a season? Remembering that most teams like a number 1 and number 2 driver, so only 1 seat for a top driver..... answer.... not many. How many times has there been more than 3 top tier drivers on the grid in one season? a lot. So yes, F1 has always been like this.

Here’s a list of drivers that had a car capable of winning the championship from 2014-2020:

- Hamilton
- Rosberg
- Bottas
- Vettel
- Raikkonen

That’s 5 drivers in 7 years.

Now compare that to 2005-2011 (also a 7 year period):

- Hamilton
- Alonso
- Schumacher
- Massa
- Raikkonen
- Button
- Barrichello
- Vettel
- Webber
- Fisichella

That’s 10 drivers in 5 years.

Only five drivers having a shot at a WDC capable car in 7 years is completely unheard of in F1 history. You can look at any other 7 year period and the competition will be far greater. That is precisely why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era.

But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition

Drivers and their battles are a nice distraction of there it ultimately revolves around. The car and the technical side. The real stars. Lotus 49, the mighty M23, the 79 ground effect car, first carbon chassis MP4, the RS01, FW14 and its successors, MP4/4, RB7, the vapourware that was the MP4/18 and now the W11.

[Kingshark]

But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition

Everything in F1 is relative.

The reason why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era is because the level of competition at the front has been embarrassingly low compared to any other era.

[NathanOlder]

But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition

Everything in F1 is relative.

The reason why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era is because the level of competition at the front has been embarrassingly low compared to any other era.

But 2017 and 2018 were amazzingly competetive compared to.... 1988, 1992, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2004.

[Kingshark]

But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition

Everything in F1 is relative.

The reason why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era is because the level of competition at the front has been embarrassingly low compared to any other era.

But 2017 and 2018 were amazzingly competetive compared to.... 1988, 1992, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2004.

2 seasons in a 7 year period is an abysmal return.

[dans79]

You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020

Its an opinion, so he is not objectively wrong any more than you are right. You would do well to learn that before the mods step in and shut you down!

[aMessageToCharlie]

You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020

Its an opinion, so he is not objectively wrong any more than you are right. You would do well to learn that before the mods step in and shut you down!

Ah, yes. Threatening with censorship is a great way to handle a discussion.

[dans79]

You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020

Its an opinion, so he is not objectively wrong any more than you are right. You would do well to learn that before the mods step in and shut you down!

Ah, yes. Threatening with censorship is a great way to handle a discussion.

It's not censorship, arguing the same point over and over again trying to prove that everyone else is wrong and you are right is against the rules.

[ringo]

There were only 85 races in the Ferrari period you mentioned, and 138 in the Mercedes period. The win tallies over the number of Grand Prix are as follows:

Ferrari- 57/85- 67%
Mercedes 102/138- 74%

What % of the total wins were Shumachers and how many were Hamilton's?
I think Shumacher may have over 60%. Hamilton less.

[Ringleheim]

The role of the driver has never been less significant or important in the entire history of grand prix motor racing.

All of Vettel's and Hamilton's championships have come on the cheap.

Any one of probably 10 drivers could be champion these days, if you are sitting in the right car. Only trick is making sure you can beat your teammate. That's it. If you can do that, you're champion.

[dans79]

Only trick is making sure you can beat your teammate. That's it. If you can do that, you're champion.

go look at Fangio's record and you will see it wasn't any different back then either.


to throw some numbers out there post fangio.
In the 63 seasons since 1958 when the WCC started, the WDC has only been won 10 times while not driving the WCC winning car.