2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[Mclarensenna]

So are you saying i made a bad assessment? I could have posted more data but i decided to summarise but sure since you seek further clarification i am happy to help.

2019 Abhu Dhabi Leclerc who got 4 pole positions in 2019 a record not matched since the schumacher Ferrari era and beat Vettel in 2019 so the kid was very fast in 2019 was 43 seconds off Hamilton in Abhu Dhabi. He also outqualied Vettel that race and with superior pace still ended up 43 seconds behind. Compare to Vettel in 2018 Abhu Dhabi ended up 2 seconds behind Hamilton right on his tail. That is a huge difference and it happened due to the engine directive.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Hamilton was pacing himself up front not pushing at all so he was nowhere near the maximum. And then he put the hammer down to set the fastest lap and was about 1 second a lap quicker. Also Vettel was on much fresher tyres due to the extra stops which you mentioned. Ham pitted on lap 26, Vettel on 38. So yes Vettel had 12 lap fresher tyres which is MASSIVE. So the race pace delta was much bigger. 1.5 seconds or possibly 2 seconds off the Mercs.
Night and day difference and all that changed was the engine directive in Abhu Dhabi 2019.
Its clear as day the Engine directive massively compromised the 2019 Ferrari chassis.
if you need more data i am happy to help also

Thanks for the additional info! Your initial assessment was only based on Vettel been 1 min + behind Hamilton a the finish line and that just been a product of supposedly Ferrari losing engine performance due to the Technical Directives... The additional Pistop (26 seconds) is what drove most of the delta in lap times, that’s why I mentioned that we had to put things in context.

Furthermore, I disagree that Abu Dhabi is proof that they lost performance due to the engine simply by how they finished in the standings, the early Pitstops of both Ferrari’s indicate a large degree of degradation on a track that may simply not have suited Ferrari’s 2019 car, which Ferrari struggled with through the season also (for example, Vettel ended 62 seconds from Mercedes in France in the same year, Leclerc was 30 seconds away in Silverstone (which if we consider the time loss due to the additional PitStop would be a similar delta at the end of the race for Leclerc) in Hungary of the same year the best placed Ferrari finished 61 seconds from Mercedes) and just in the US GP (1 race before Abu Dhabi and still running their “suspected engine”) Leclerc was the best placed Ferrari at 52 seconds from Mercedes.

The 2019 season was one of very drastic performance variances for Ferrari... One could argue that Hungary wasn’t a race where the engine plays a dominant role and that’s why there were so far behind, but they dominated in Singapore which has similar characteristics... Ferrari struggled when they couldn’t get their tires in the optimum window and Abu Dhabi was just another track that year where they struggled with that, not necessary related to any engine directives in my opinion and their performance and time delta wasn’t at all too far from other “bad races” for them in 2019.







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"Furthermore, I disagree that Abu Dhabi is proof that they lost performance due to the engine simply by how they finished in the standings, the early Pitstops of both Ferrari’s indicate a large degree of degradation on a track that may simply not have suited Ferrari’s 2019 car," <---------- Please check my previous reply i pasted lap times from 2018 and 2019 Abhu Dhabi. The pitt stops never came into my analysis. I looked at every single lap from lap 1 to the end. Ferrari and merc were dead even in race pace in 2018 Abhu Dhabi and 2019 they were 1.5 -2 seconds off the pace. That is MASSIVE. BEYOND MASSIVE. And to say Ferrari does not suit that track makes no sense. As yes some cars are suited to certain tracks like Merc with a long wheelbase vs Redbull with shorter wheelbase. Yes we generally see Redbull doing well at certain tracks but its always very similar year after year. We never see a car ultra competitive in the 2018 Abhu Dhabi grand prix then lose 1-5 - 2 seconds a lap in race pace the next with a similar concept.

"Furthermore, making that assessment using 2018 results to validate the hypothesis of 2019 also has complications since a big regulation change between both years and therefore car performance was expected to change from year to year." <-------------------- Look at leclerc in some of the early 2019 races. The problem is alot of the swing in car performance is not actually the car. Ham is ultra consistant. Vettel and Leclerc in 2019 where not. Leclerc in Bahrain the 2nd race only for Ferrari and still a rookie in his 2nd year where Ferrari had full power he opened a 10 second gap to Ham then maintained it. He was half a second a lap quicker than Ham and Vettel in race pace.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Leclerc

The car was designed around Vettel, with Vettel as clear number 1 in race 2 yet Leclerc was half a second a lap quicker the entire race about to win with vettel in 5th well off the paceso none of these 2020 Vettel excuses about Ferrari favoring Vettel or the car was designed around Leclerc can be used. Vettel jumped Leclerc at the start and given team orders not to overtake Vettel. Leclerc was a clear number 2 but Leclerc ignored the orders, Overtook Vettel anyway then pulled away from vettel at half a second a lap.

So Vettel is extremely inconsistant to come 5th in a car that was so quick, that in Leclercs hands was 10 second in the lead managing the race, cruising up front before the engine issue.
So you need to factor this into your equation.

And Bahrain is a night race a track that does rely on power similarish not exactly to say Abhu Dhabi. How did Leclerc go from being half a second quicker than Ham in Bahrain to 1.5 - 2 seconds slower with the exact same car at a similarish night race in Abhu Dhabi? Surely the technical directive played a big role in this. Especially when the previous years Ferrari was very quick in Abhu DHabi so the Ferrari likes this track.
In 2018 Abhu Dhabi it was a Ferrari pole and win. In 2019 it was in Leclercs hand a pole and win again. So the tracks year by year are fairly consistant. Nothing to suggest a 2 second swing like Abhu Dhabi in actual race pace.

This is the part you need to focus on. Not the swing but the sheer magnitude of the performance swing from 1 year to the next.

[Mclarensenna]

So are you saying i made a bad assessment? I could have posted more data but i decided to summarise but sure since you seek further clarification i am happy to help.

2019 Abhu Dhabi Leclerc who got 4 pole positions in 2019 a record not matched since the schumacher Ferrari era and beat Vettel in 2019 so the kid was very fast in 2019 was 43 seconds off Hamilton in Abhu Dhabi. He also outqualied Vettel that race and with superior pace still ended up 43 seconds behind. Compare to Vettel in 2018 Abhu Dhabi ended up 2 seconds behind Hamilton right on his tail. That is a huge difference and it happened due to the engine directive.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Hamilton was pacing himself up front not pushing at all so he was nowhere near the maximum. And then he put the hammer down to set the fastest lap and was about 1 second a lap quicker. Also Vettel was on much fresher tyres due to the extra stops which you mentioned. Ham pitted on lap 26, Vettel on 38. So yes Vettel had 12 lap fresher tyres which is MASSIVE. So the race pace delta was much bigger. 1.5 seconds or possibly 2 seconds off the Mercs.
Night and day difference and all that changed was the engine directive in Abhu Dhabi 2019.
Its clear as day the Engine directive massively compromised the 2019 Ferrari chassis.
if you need more data i am happy to help also

Thanks for the additional info! Your initial assessment was only based on Vettel been 1 min + behind Hamilton a the finish line and that just been a product of supposedly Ferrari losing engine performance due to the Technical Directives... The additional Pistop (26 seconds) is what drove most of the delta in lap times, that’s why I mentioned that we had to put things in context.

Furthermore, I disagree that Abu Dhabi is proof that they lost performance due to the engine simply by how they finished in the standings, the early Pitstops of both Ferrari’s indicate a large degree of degradation on a track that may simply not have suited Ferrari’s 2019 car, which Ferrari struggled with through the season also (for example, Vettel ended 62 seconds from Mercedes in France in the same year, Leclerc was 30 seconds away in Silverstone (which if we consider the time loss due to the additional PitStop would be a similar delta at the end of the race for Leclerc) in Hungary of the same year the best placed Ferrari finished 61 seconds from Mercedes) and just in the US GP (1 race before Abu Dhabi and still running their “suspected engine”) Leclerc was the best placed Ferrari at 52 seconds from Mercedes.

The 2019 season was one of very drastic performance variances for Ferrari... One could argue that Hungary wasn’t a race where the engine plays a dominant role and that’s why there were so far behind, but they dominated in Singapore which has similar characteristics... Ferrari struggled when they couldn’t get their tires in the optimum window and Abu Dhabi was just another track that year where they struggled with that, not necessary related to any engine directives in my opinion and their performance and time delta wasn’t at all too far from other “bad races” for them in 2019.

Furthermore, making that assessment using 2018 results to validate the hypothesis of 2019 also has complications since a big regulation change between both years and therefore car performance was expected to change from year to year.


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https://www.racefans.net/2019/11/04/fer ... -comments/
Also Ferrari's run of 6 pole positions in a row came to an end in the USA once the technical directive was started. Surprise surprise
But i did hear rumours that USA and Brazil the engine directive was only partially applied by Ferrari, then after more complaints Ferrari then more aggresively reduced the engine tricks in Abhu Dhabi hence the much bigger drop in race pace there. But the engine tricks were completely banned in 2020 hence the much bigger drop in performance last year. So that is why i focus so much on the final 3 races in race pace but the Abhu Dhabi race especially to make my assessment.

[haza]

Just posted pretty sure that’s the PU on the left

[f1rules]

yeah looks like the merc pu and the chassis with its gold covered lower part for heat resistence

[_cerber1]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... oYNh4.html

“Yes we’re clawing it [the downforce cut] back; it was a reasonably big hit to begin with. Floor changes from the side profile of the floor which will be quite obvious on the 2021 car; small diffuser, rear brake ducts – they all influence a complex area of aerodynamics around the rear tyre and really it’s a case of trying to pull that back as best we can, and we are making progress every week at the moment, but there’s still some work to do,” he concluded.

[_cerber1]

Just posted pretty sure that’s the PU on the left

I assume this is a PU mockup, it seems too empty for a full engine.

[diffuser]

You know guys, I know we're kind of at a loss without F1 so we're willing to talk about anything, but nothing you say here will actually change what happens during the season.

Can McLaren make a big jump this year and challange RBR? Yes they can. Likely? no. We'll probably know the answer this one fairly early. Maybe as earily as testing.
Can Mclaren screw up and fall to 6th place in 2021 ? Yes they can. More likely that challanging RBR but also not likely.

They will likely fall in between 3ird and 5th but everything is possible.

2022 is the more interesting year, the 140M CAP is on now. McLaren will not be out spent 2 to 1 by the top 3 on the 2022 car. In fact, even McLaren will have to cut back on what they're used to spending.

[mwillems]

The dates were intended to tell FIA how they were going to use the Tokens, they didn’t need to have finalized designs for it... The other cut off dates where for parts to be homologated (therefore wouldn’t need Tokens)

So, Mclaren could have still work on the “integration” of parts until as late as they could (considering production times)


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I could be wrong cause I'm no lawyer and you need one to understand the rules but that's what I understood.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/six-key- ... -answered/

WHEN CAN CHANGES BE MADE, AND HOW MANY?
Some homologated components have been afforded a value of one token, which means they can be updated twice.

Bigger components, such as inboard front and rear suspension, have been assigned a value of two tokens.

That means teams can only deploy one change in specification once the design is homologated.

Motor Racing Formula One Testing Test One Day 1 Barcelona, Spain
To use their tokens, teams have to hit three deadlines, starting with the intent to modify a part with an estimate on which parts the change affects and a brief description of the reasons, then providing a full specification of the changes and affected components, and eventually producing a detailed scheme of the intended changes.

This process must be completed within two months of the end of the 2020 shutdown period for parts homologated by the first round, and within two months of the third round of the season for R8-2020 parts.

But the first deadline is so early that if teams want to use a token to change a homologated part, they need begin the process of informing the FIA several weeks before the homologation is even set.

And it means any changes intended to be made during the off-season, or in 2021, will need to be established well before the 2020 campaign has ended.

I’m also a bit confused, the dates seem to be very early in the season, especially for someone as Mclaren that probably needed a considerable amount of time to integrate the new PU and the dates in which they were still talking about working on the process.


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But it does appear to be the case interestingly:

22.1.4 Notwithstanding the objectives and provisions of this Article 22.1, Competitors may use up to
a total of two (2) tokens for the modification of certain homologated components after the
specified freeze date. In order to use this provision, the Competitor must observe the following timeframe in
relation to notifying the FIA:

- D1: notify the FIA of the intent to modify an HC, with an estimate on the parts it
affects and a brief description of the reasons
2020 Formula 1 Technical Regulations 99 19 June 2020

- D2: provide the FIA with a full specification of the intended changes of the HC and any
affected components

- D3: provide the FIA with a detailed scheme of the intended changes


For all three deadlines, the FIA will undertake to respond to the Competitor within a week in
relation to the proposed modification.The following table shows the deadlines of these three dates in accordance to the HC that is getting modified:

R1-2020 Mid-2020
D1 5 days after the end
of the 2020
shutdown
22 July 2020

D2 14 days after the
end of the 2020
shutdown
5 August 2020

D3 60 days after the
end of the 2020
shutdown
21 September 2020

So he looks to be quite right.. that's a tight deadline! And I'd imagine with the amount of work for us to do, there would have been no small amount of back and forth with the FIA as we deviate from the original plan at times.

So I don't now understand this and the conflicting statements put out by the team as to what they can achieve with the car, whether it is a compromise or not, whether they can improve a lot... or not...! Or perhaps they have just been misreported.

Oh well, we will have to wait and see what they produce.

[Emag]

Anybody knows if Daniel has had a seat fitting session yet? I think Perez got one today and Carlos has been involved with Ferrari basically from the moment 2020 ended.
I guess there's no need to rush anything but would be nice to see some videos / pictures of Daniel interacting with the team.

[mwillems]

You know guys, I know we're kind of at a loss without F1 so we're willing to talk about anything, but nothing you say here will actually change what happens during the season.

Can McLaren make a big jump this year and challange RBR? Yes they can. Likely? no. We'll probably know the answer this one fairly early. Maybe as earily as testing.
Can Mclaren screw up and fall to 6th place in 2021 ? Yes they can. More likely that challanging RBR but also not likely.

They will likely fall in between 3ird and 5th but everything is possible.

2022 is the more interesting year, the 140M CAP is on now. McLaren will not be out spent 2 to 1 by the top 3 on the 2022 car. In fact, even McLaren will have to cut back on what they're used to spending.

I feel 6th could be our place as easily as 3rd could. Renault, Ferrari and RP will all be competitive this year, we won't have the benefit of a slow starting Ferrari I think.

Re the cost cap, yes it will make it more competitive - and profitable, even for Mclaren. it's interesting you mention that again because only this morning I was reading an article where Daimler had spoken about an ongoing profitable franchise for Mercedes.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-f1-team-profit/

I'm posting here because what they say applies to all teams.

[Big Tea]

You know guys, I know we're kind of at a loss without F1 so we're willing to talk about anything, but nothing you say here will actually change what happens during the season.

Can McLaren make a big jump this year and challange RBR? Yes they can. Likely? no. We'll probably know the answer this one fairly early. Maybe as earily as testing.
Can Mclaren screw up and fall to 6th place in 2021 ? Yes they can. More likely that challanging RBR but also not likely.

They will likely fall in between 3ird and 5th but everything is possible.

2022 is the more interesting year, the 140M CAP is on now. McLaren will not be out spent 2 to 1 by the top 3 on the 2022 car. In fact, even McLaren will have to cut back on what they're used to spending.

I feel 6th could be our place as easily as 3rd could. Renault, Ferrari and RP will all be competitive this year, we won't have the benefit of a slow starting Ferrari I think.

Re the cost cap, yes it will make it more competitive - and profitable, even for Mclaren. it's interesting you mention that again because only this morning I was reading an article where Daimler had spoken about an ongoing profitable franchise for Mercedes.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-f1-team-profit/

I'm posting here because what they say applies to all teams.

I 100% agree with you. I don't see much more than plus or minus a tenth in the teams and some luck or DNF's will define the list.
The tighter the group the less opportunity to get an extra point or two, and that will be the deciding factor along with a slip up or two V another teams fails

[diffuser]

You know guys, I know we're kind of at a loss without F1 so we're willing to talk about anything, but nothing you say here will actually change what happens during the season.

Can McLaren make a big jump this year and challange RBR? Yes they can. Likely? no. We'll probably know the answer this one fairly early. Maybe as earily as testing.
Can Mclaren screw up and fall to 6th place in 2021 ? Yes they can. More likely that challanging RBR but also not likely.

They will likely fall in between 3ird and 5th but everything is possible.

2022 is the more interesting year, the 140M CAP is on now. McLaren will not be out spent 2 to 1 by the top 3 on the 2022 car. In fact, even McLaren will have to cut back on what they're used to spending.

I feel 6th could be our place as easily as 3rd could. Renault, Ferrari and RP will all be competitive this year, we won't have the benefit of a slow starting Ferrari I think.

Re the cost cap, yes it will make it more competitive - and profitable, even for Mclaren. it's interesting you mention that again because only this morning I was reading an article where Daimler had spoken about an ongoing profitable franchise for Mercedes.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-f1-team-profit/

I'm posting here because what they say applies to all teams.

Austin Martin has a new challenge. They just can't scan pictures into designs like, it is suspected, they did last year. New rules have made that Illegal. So getting the new AM to look like last years Merc(W11)? Isn't gonna be as easy. Will they go the customer route or build thier own way? Unknown. Hard to predict where they will fall. Initially I had them leading this pack, with a strong possibility of challenging RBR....After the rule change no so sure.

I think you're right, anywhere from 3ird-6th. With any luck anywhere from 3ird through 7th. I hope Williams start to improve with new money and start to be more competative.

[Macklaren]

Anybody knows if Daniel has had a seat fitting session yet? I think Perez got one today and Carlos has been involved with Ferrari basically from the moment 2020 ended.
I guess there's no need to rush anything but would be nice to see some videos / pictures of Daniel interacting with the team.

AFAIK Danny is still in LA. He just posted pics of his new company car (Mclaren 765LT) and the RHUDE partnership on social media. He'll prob have to quarantine for a while if he files to the UK so probably going to be a while

[mwillems]

You know guys, I know we're kind of at a loss without F1 so we're willing to talk about anything, but nothing you say here will actually change what happens during the season.

Can McLaren make a big jump this year and challange RBR? Yes they can. Likely? no. We'll probably know the answer this one fairly early. Maybe as earily as testing.
Can Mclaren screw up and fall to 6th place in 2021 ? Yes they can. More likely that challanging RBR but also not likely.

They will likely fall in between 3ird and 5th but everything is possible.

2022 is the more interesting year, the 140M CAP is on now. McLaren will not be out spent 2 to 1 by the top 3 on the 2022 car. In fact, even McLaren will have to cut back on what they're used to spending.

I feel 6th could be our place as easily as 3rd could. Renault, Ferrari and RP will all be competitive this year, we won't have the benefit of a slow starting Ferrari I think.

Re the cost cap, yes it will make it more competitive - and profitable, even for Mclaren. it's interesting you mention that again because only this morning I was reading an article where Daimler had spoken about an ongoing profitable franchise for Mercedes.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-f1-team-profit/

I'm posting here because what they say applies to all teams.

I 100% agree with you. I don't see much more than plus or minus a tenth in the teams and some luck or DNF's will define the list.
The tighter the group the less opportunity to get an extra point or two, and that will be the deciding factor along with a slip up or two V another teams fails

Praise the lord for Lance Stroll retaining his seat at RP

[mwillems]

You know guys, I know we're kind of at a loss without F1 so we're willing to talk about anything, but nothing you say here will actually change what happens during the season.

Can McLaren make a big jump this year and challange RBR? Yes they can. Likely? no. We'll probably know the answer this one fairly early. Maybe as earily as testing.
Can Mclaren screw up and fall to 6th place in 2021 ? Yes they can. More likely that challanging RBR but also not likely.

They will likely fall in between 3ird and 5th but everything is possible.

2022 is the more interesting year, the 140M CAP is on now. McLaren will not be out spent 2 to 1 by the top 3 on the 2022 car. In fact, even McLaren will have to cut back on what they're used to spending.

I feel 6th could be our place as easily as 3rd could. Renault, Ferrari and RP will all be competitive this year, we won't have the benefit of a slow starting Ferrari I think.

Re the cost cap, yes it will make it more competitive - and profitable, even for Mclaren. it's interesting you mention that again because only this morning I was reading an article where Daimler had spoken about an ongoing profitable franchise for Mercedes.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-f1-team-profit/

I'm posting here because what they say applies to all teams.

Austin Martin has a new challenge. They just can't scan pictures into designs like, it is suspected, they did last year. New rules have made that Illegal. So getting the new AM to look like last years Merc(W11)? Isn't gonna be as easy. Will they go the customer route or build thier own way? Unknown. Hard to predict where they will fall. Initially I had them leading this pack, with a strong possibility of challenging RBR....After the rule change no so sure.

I think you're right, anywhere from 3ird-6th. With any luck anywhere from 3ird through 7th. I hope Williams start to improve with new money and start to be more competative.

To be fair to them, they did well with their mid season development. Hopefully that's all they can find but those sidepods really did give that car a boost. It's a fair point though, it's not cut and dry for them when it comes to the front wing and the floor. But they don't have too much work to do to the car and they are typically good with their resources, so who knows.

Austin Martin has a new challenge. Is that because they accidentally 3d scanned the aero from an Allegro?