Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[hUirEYExbN]

Only trick is making sure you can beat your teammate. That's it. If you can do that, you're champion.

go look at Fangio's record and you will see it wasn't any different back then either.


to throw some numbers out there post fangio.
In the 63 seasons since 1958 when the WCC started, the WDC has only been won 10 times while not driving the WCC winning car.

I guess it should be noted that Hamilton has one of those rare championships.

[Kingshark]

The role of the driver has never been less significant or important in the entire history of grand prix motor racing.

All of Vettel's and Hamilton's championships have come on the cheap.

Any one of probably 10 drivers could be champion these days, if you are sitting in the right car. Only trick is making sure you can beat your teammate. That's it. If you can do that, you're champion.

If the 2022 regulations changes (budget cap and windtunnel hours) achieve what they are intended to (close the field up as much as possible), fans will look back and Hamilton and Vettel’s world titles with an asterisk beside them.

Kind of like how Pele’s “1000 goals” is now a running joke in the football fan community, because he scored so many of those goals in friendlies.

[dans79]

fans will look back and Hamilton and Vettel’s world titles with an asterisk beside them.

The only fans that are going to do that, are the ones with agendas, just like how it's always been.

{insert name here} wasn't my driver of choice, so his accomplishment are irrelevant.

[Just_a_fan]

The role of the driver has never been less significant or important in the entire history of grand prix motor racing.

All of Vettel's and Hamilton's championships have come on the cheap.

Any one of probably 10 drivers could be champion these days, if you are sitting in the right car. Only trick is making sure you can beat your teammate. That's it. If you can do that, you're champion.

If the 2022 regulations changes (budget cap and windtunnel hours) achieve what they are intended to (close the field up as much as possible), fans will look back and Hamilton and Vettel’s world titles with an asterisk beside them.

Kind of like how Pele’s “1000 goals” is now a running joke in the football fan community, because he scored so many of those goals in friendlies.

You mean just like fans do with Schumacher's titles? You know, best car, bespoke tyres, unlimited testing, tame team mate, debatable tactics, etc.?

Oh, that can't be right, can it?

[Jaeger]

Can a mod change the name of the topic to "Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 8".. ?

[prince]

The role of the driver has never been less significant or important in the entire history of grand prix motor racing.

All of Vettel's and Hamilton's championships have come on the cheap.

Any one of probably 10 drivers could be champion these days, if you are sitting in the right car. Only trick is making sure you can beat your teammate. That's it. If you can do that, you're champion.

If the 2022 regulations changes (budget cap and windtunnel hours) achieve what they are intended to (close the field up as much as possible), fans will look back and Hamilton and Vettel’s world titles with an asterisk beside them.

Kind of like how Pele’s “1000 goals” is now a running joke in the football fan community, because he scored so many of those goals in friendlies.

You mean just like fans do with Schumacher's titles? You know, best car, bespoke tyres, unlimited testing, tame team mate, debatable tactics, etc.?

Oh, that can't be right, can it?

You can add Lewis Hamilton's 7 too in that list. Greatest cars and with a wingman.

[Just_a_fan]

If the 2022 regulations changes (budget cap and windtunnel hours) achieve what they are intended to (close the field up as much as possible), fans will look back and Hamilton and Vettel’s world titles with an asterisk beside them.

Kind of like how Pele’s “1000 goals” is now a running joke in the football fan community, because he scored so many of those goals in friendlies.

You mean just like fans do with Schumacher's titles? You know, best car, bespoke tyres, unlimited testing, tame team mate, debatable tactics, etc.?

Oh, that can't be right, can it?

You can add Lewis Hamilton's 7 too in that list. Greatest cars and with a wingman.

Which is the point being made. For many, the titles of many (all?) of the greats can be dismissed for similar reasons.

Which means that the discussion is really "which driver do I like / dislike" and thus a simple fan boy to-and-fro with no absolute objective answer.

There is an argument for saying that the best drivers back in the 50s were the best ever. They generally raced everything - single seaters, sports cars, tin tops. Look at Fangio's career race record and see a litany of wins and podia with hardly any non-podium finishes across the range of races.

It's the problem with the simple-minded media-favoured approach of "most means best". Schumacher had most wins and poles ergo Schumacher is best. Now Hamilton has most poles and wins ergo Hamilton is best.

Any true fan of the sport knows that it isn't that simple. It does show remarkable consistency and focus, yes, and those are champion qualities, but it isn't the whole story. What marks out the top drivers is particular results in less than favourable situations. Not for nothing is wet weather performance generally held in high regard, for example.

It's a fun discussion but ultimately will never give an objective outcome.

[sosic2121]

Only trick is making sure you can beat your teammate. That's it. If you can do that, you're champion.

go look at Fangio's record and you will see it wasn't any different back then either.


to throw some numbers out there post fangio.
In the 63 seasons since 1958 when the WCC started, the WDC has only been won 10 times while not driving the WCC winning car.

I guess it should be noted that Hamilton has one of those rare championships.

Don't forget to mention that he also failed to win WDC in WCC. Twice.

[Just_a_fan]

go look at Fangio's record and you will see it wasn't any different back then either.


to throw some numbers out there post fangio.
In the 63 seasons since 1958 when the WCC started, the WDC has only been won 10 times while not driving the WCC winning car.

I guess it should be noted that Hamilton has one of those rare championships.

Don't forget to mention that he also failed to win WDC in WCC. Twice.

Technically only once as the 2007 season saw McLaren's points removed so Ferrari was the WCC car. But one must remember that his team mate (Alonso) also didn't win the WDC in the "WCC car" that season either.

So only in 2016 did he fail to win the WDC in the WCC car.

You know, if you're going to be particular about these things.

[El Scorchio]

I guess it should be noted that Hamilton has one of those rare championships.

Don't forget to mention that he also failed to win WDC in WCC. Twice.

Technically only once as the 2007 season saw McLaren's points removed so Ferrari was the WCC car. But one must remember that his team mate (Alonso) also didn't win the WDC in the "WCC car" that season either.

So only in 2016 did he fail to win the WDC in the WCC car.

You know, if you're going to be particular about these things.

To be more particular, of course he only lost that WDC because ironically the WCC winning car let him down when he was winning by a country mile in Malaysia. In terms of what he could control, he did enough that season to win the title.

[sosic2121]

Don't forget to mention that he also failed to win WDC in WCC. Twice.

Technically only once as the 2007 season saw McLaren's points removed so Ferrari was the WCC car. But one must remember that his team mate (Alonso) also didn't win the WDC in the "WCC car" that season either.

So only in 2016 did he fail to win the WDC in the WCC car.

You know, if you're going to be particular about these things.

To be more particular, of course he only lost that WDC because ironically the WCC winning car let him down when he was winning by a country mile in Malaysia. In terms of what he could control, he did enough that season to win the title.

Hmmm, I thought that he lost it because Rosberg did what needed to be done, for example winning the race(Japan) after Malaysia.
And after that race he switched into "I only need to finish second" mode.
Even that faul play in last race couldn't keep him from finishing second

[Just_a_fan]

Technically only once as the 2007 season saw McLaren's points removed so Ferrari was the WCC car. But one must remember that his team mate (Alonso) also didn't win the WDC in the "WCC car" that season either.

So only in 2016 did he fail to win the WDC in the WCC car.

You know, if you're going to be particular about these things.

To be more particular, of course he only lost that WDC because ironically the WCC winning car let him down when he was winning by a country mile in Malaysia. In terms of what he could control, he did enough that season to win the title.

Hmmm, I thought that he lost it because Rosberg did what needed to be done, for example winning the race(Japan) after Malaysia.
And after that race he switched into "I only need to finish second" mode.
Even that faul play in last race couldn't keep him from finishing second

Rosberg did enough over the season to ensure he was able to capitalise on his team mate's misfortune. Job done.

There was no foul play in the last race. Foul play is causing a yellow flag on someone's Q3 lap, or driving someone towards a wall at high speed.

[raymondu999]

Or — if i were playing the f1 game — brake testing rosberg mid straight lol

[sosic2121]

To be more particular, of course he only lost that WDC because ironically the WCC winning car let him down when he was winning by a country mile in Malaysia. In terms of what he could control, he did enough that season to win the title.

Hmmm, I thought that he lost it because Rosberg did what needed to be done, for example winning the race(Japan) after Malaysia.
And after that race he switched into "I only need to finish second" mode.
Even that faul play in last race couldn't keep him from finishing second

Rosberg did enough over the season to ensure he was able to capitalise on his team mate's misfortune. Job done.

There was no foul play in the last race. Foul play is causing a yellow flag on someone's Q3 lap, or driving someone towards a wall at high speed.

In 2014 Rosberg had a failure in the final race which decided that championship.

After Malaysia happened Hamilton still could win the championship. It wasn't the luck that he was missing in those last 5 races, it was skill - ability to win all 5 races(I'm not saying trying to bash Hamilton here).
Rosberg only needed to win 1, and he delivered immediately. After that winning was not necessary.

[Just_a_fan]

Hmmm, I thought that he lost it because Rosberg did what needed to be done, for example winning the race(Japan) after Malaysia.
And after that race he switched into "I only need to finish second" mode.
Even that faul play in last race couldn't keep him from finishing second

Rosberg did enough over the season to ensure he was able to capitalise on his team mate's misfortune. Job done.

There was no foul play in the last race. Foul play is causing a yellow flag on someone's Q3 lap, or driving someone towards a wall at high speed.

In 2014 Rosberg had a failure in the final race which decided that championship.

After Malaysia happened Hamilton still could win the championship. It wasn't the luck that he was missing in those last 5 races, it was skill - ability to win all 5 races(I'm not saying trying to bash Hamilton here).
Rosberg only needed to win 1, and he delivered immediately. After that winning was not necessary.

As I said, he did enough over the season to win.

That's what people forget - it's not just about getting in to a fast car, you have to deliver over an entire season. Flashes of brilliance aren't enough, it has to be constant effort. And as Rosberg admitted, doing it against Hamilton was too much for him to do again so he retired immediately.