Alpine A521 Speculation Thread

[Blackout]

They say this car is the dark horse. Just insider sources saything they have found a way to minimise downforce loss from the new rules.

You're a knowledgeable one, but do you also have insider infos

[GoranF1]

Up until 4 weeks ago the rules wouldn’t even allow all effort to be put into 2022 car (aero work was banned). Alpine like all teams are going to have put a lot of work into regaining lost downforce on this years car. They are apparently spending tokens on rear end suspension and cooling system.

Just because rules dont allow it doesnt mean they didnt do it! This is racing not balet.

[the EDGE]

Up until 4 weeks ago the rules wouldn’t even allow all effort to be put into 2022 car (aero work was banned). Alpine like all teams are going to have put a lot of work into regaining lost downforce on this years car. They are apparently spending tokens on rear end suspension and cooling system.

Just because rules dont allow it doesnt mean they didnt do it! This is racing not balet.

They can’t spend tokens on rear end suspension & cooling, each requires 2 tokens to amend so that would be 4, and they only have 2. However the only part of the cooling system covered by tokens are the water-oil or water-water coolers themselves, other parts such as ducting/pipes can be changed token free

F1 CFD & wind tunnel work is closely monitored by auditors because of the RRA. There is no way teams could have been sneakily working on ‘22 cars without it being known

[JordanMugen]

F1 CFD & wind tunnel work is closely monitored by auditors because of the RRA. There is no way teams could have been sneakily working on ‘22 cars without it being known

There is nothing to stop Alpine F1 team designers doodling the 2022 Alpine F1 car on drawing paper at home though, based on their best thoughts on how to make a fast car. IIRC, this is how Barnard designed the Chaparral 2K without the use of any computer simulations of aerodynamics or structural stresses. A simple calculator should be sufficient.

For all we know, the designers could have reams of hand drawings of radiators, intercoolers, suspension arms, bodywork etc with a blank date field ready to be sneakily dated much later than the true drawing date.

[the EDGE]

F1 CFD & wind tunnel work is closely monitored by auditors because of the RRA. There is no way teams could have been sneakily working on ‘22 cars without it being known

There is nothing to stop Alpine F1 team designers doodling the 2022 Alpine F1 car on drawing paper at home though, based on their best thoughts on how to make a fast car. IIRC, this is how Barnard designed the Chaparral 2K without the use of any computer simulations of aerodynamics or structural stresses. A simple calculator should be sufficient.

For all we know, the designers could have reams of hand drawings of radiators, intercoolers, suspension arms, bodywork etc with a blank date field ready to be sneakily dated much later than the true drawing date.

As said above CFD & wind tunnel work was banned so none of what your suggesting was against any rules, not that in the real world it would make a blind bit of difference of course

[Big Tea]

Up until 4 weeks ago the rules wouldn’t even allow all effort to be put into 2022 car (aero work was banned). Alpine like all teams are going to have put a lot of work into regaining lost downforce on this years car. They are apparently spending tokens on rear end suspension and cooling system.

Just because rules dont allow it doesnt mean they didnt do it! This is racing not balet.

They can’t spend tokens on rear end suspension & cooling, each requires 2 tokens to amend so that would be 4, and they only have 2. However the only part of the cooling system covered by tokens are the water-oil or water-water coolers themselves, other parts such as ducting/pipes can be changed token free

F1 CFD & wind tunnel work is closely monitored by auditors because of the RRA. There is no way teams could have been sneakily working on ‘22 cars without it being known

So how much of the 22 car can they make a start on? The full regs out yet, or would they just be making a guess?
For instance, the difference between last years car and this one, which is basically the same one, could be far different. I if they had the knowledge and opportunity to work unrestricted on this years car last year, someone would be off to a flyer.

[the EDGE]

Just because rules dont allow it doesnt mean they didnt do it! This is racing not balet.

They can’t spend tokens on rear end suspension & cooling, each requires 2 tokens to amend so that would be 4, and they only have 2. However the only part of the cooling system covered by tokens are the water-oil or water-water coolers themselves, other parts such as ducting/pipes can be changed token free

F1 CFD & wind tunnel work is closely monitored by auditors because of the RRA. There is no way teams could have been sneakily working on ‘22 cars without it being known

So how much of the 22 car can they make a start on? The full regs out yet, or would they just be making a guess?
For instance, the difference between last years car and this one, which is basically the same one, could be far different. I if they had the knowledge and opportunity to work unrestricted on this years car last year, someone would be off to a flyer.

The full regs are here https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

They have been able to work on the car for some time now, McLaren for example stated the following

There’s a real blank sheet of paper approach to the ’22 car – the chassis regulations are fundamentally different, and the wheels and tyres are changing too. We’ve been working on it for some time now. Every team was expecting to race these cars in 2021, so I think everyone had got to a pretty advanced stage before the aero development freeze kicked in this year. That hasn’t stopped mechanical design or simulation work taking place though. Our gearbox design, for example, is very mature now.

[PlatinumZealot]

They say this car is the dark horse. Just insider sources saything they have found a way to minimise downforce loss from the new rules.

You're a knowledgeable one, but do you also have insider infos

I just carefully select my sources. I personally do not know those persons though.

This particular rumour was from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. But it is said that the Alpine will be a surprise.

[the EDGE]

They say this car is the dark horse. Just insider sources saything they have found a way to minimise downforce loss from the new rules.

You're a knowledgeable one, but do you also have insider infos

I just carefully select my sources. I personally do not know those persons though.

This particular rumour was from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. But it is said that the Alpine will be a surprise.

Yes, sounds like your very careful to me

[PlatinumZealot]

It works!

[Blackout]

I just carefully select my sources. I personally do not know those persons though.
This particular rumour was from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. But it is said that the Alpine will be a surprise.

Okay, thanks Saul Goodman

Abiteboul said to the french Autohebdo late in december that "they concentrated the use of the tokens around the suspensions in order to unlock aerodynamic performance on the rear axle"

Will they copy the Merc trick? I dunno if it's possible with only two tokens.
https://f1i.auto-moto.com/wp-content/up ... iere_8.jpg

[JordanMugen]

As said above CFD & wind tunnel work was banned so none of what your suggesting was against any rules, not that in the real world it would make a blind bit of difference of course

I don't follow. If Barnard can design his Chaparral 2K at home from the mind, fleshed out on drawing paper, and it can be built from those drawings and become a race winner, why should a modern day racing car designer(s) require terabytes of computer simulation and/or automated optimisation algorithms to get somewhere!?

One worries of modern day engineers being overly reliant on computer-aided design and three-dimensional models, when instead a series of orthogonal drawings on paper should be more than sufficient to flesh out the layout of radiators, pipework and intercoolers neatly within the bodywork, and subsequently prepare the drawings for these individual components.

For instance, Duckworth's Cosworth V6 twin-turbo engine went straight from his drawing board to the pattern shop to have the wooden casting dies made by hand direct from these drawings, without the need for any FEA simulations on the block, without the need for any computerised milling machines to make patterns, et cetera. [Same for the DFV for that matter, except Duckworth probably used a slide rule rather than a calculator to design that one, given the integrated circuit was not yet mainstream in the late 60's!]

[the EDGE]

As said above CFD & wind tunnel work was banned so none of what your suggesting was against any rules, not that in the real world it would make a blind bit of difference of course

I don't follow. If Barnard can design his Chaparral 2K at home from the mind, fleshed out on drawing paper, and it can be built from those drawings and become a race winner, why should a modern day racing car designer(s) require terabytes of computer simulation and/or automated optimisation algorithms to get somewhere!?

One worries of modern day engineers being overly reliant on computer-aided design and three-dimensional models, when instead a series of orthogonal drawings on paper should be more than sufficient to flesh out the layout of radiators, pipework and intercoolers neatly within the bodywork, and subsequently prepare the drawings for these individual components.

For instance, Duckworth's Cosworth V6 twin-turbo engine went straight from his drawing board to the pattern shop to have the wooden casting dies made by hand direct from these drawings, without the need for any FEA simulations on the block, without the need for any computerised milling machines to make patterns, et cetera. [Same for the DFV for that matter, except Duckworth probably used a slide rule rather than a calculator to design that one, given the integrated circuit was not yet mainstream in the late 60's!]

Yet you still chose to use the Internet to make your point, when you could have just as easily stuck your head out of the window and hollered loudly

[PlatinumZealot]

I just carefully select my sources. I personally do not know those persons though.
This particular rumour was from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. But it is said that the Alpine will be a surprise.

Okay, thanks Saul Goodman

Abiteboul said to the french Autohebdo late in december that "they concentrated the use of the tokens around the suspensions in order to unlock aerodynamic performance on the rear axle"

Will they copy the Merc trick? I dunno if it's possible with only two tokens.
https://f1i.auto-moto.com/wp-content/up ... iere_8.jpg

I got my info much earlier than this from different sourcd but essentially the same message. What was speculated is the amount of improvement to be seen too.

[diffuser]

Up until 4 weeks ago the rules wouldn’t even allow all effort to be put into 2022 car (aero work was banned). Alpine like all teams are going to have put a lot of work into regaining lost downforce on this years car. They are apparently spending tokens on rear end suspension and cooling system.

Just because rules dont allow it doesnt mean they didnt do it! This is racing not balet.

#1 I don't like the idea that everyone is cheating all the time.

#2 It's unlikely or less likely than teams like Merc Ferrari and RB doing that. Simply cause Alpine/Renault didn't have the resources those other teams have had. Team like Ferrari Could have put half it's team on the 2021 car and left the other half for 2022 and Still matched Alpine on it's man power for 2021.

This year, with the CAP, it's gonna be impossible to out resource Alpine 2 to 1. The aforementioned teams would have to find a way to use the B team resources to help the A Team.