New engine usage rule

[ISLAMATRON]

8 engines per car number(entry) not per driver.

[shir0]

8 engines per car number(entry) not per driver.

With this new rule, will we see 2nd drivers pulled from their cars in the last few races and replaced by the third driver, who by the wording of the regulations, would start with 8 new engines for the rest of the season?

It's really not "8 engines percar number(entry)" as stated in the sporting code. But it can be interpreted like that. The exact words in the code is this:

b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to
be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.

So any "third driver" replacing any of the two main drivers in any team will be considered as "the same driver" he replaced just for the purpose of this rule. Which means he doesn't get to have a fresh set of 8 engines...he gets to work with whatever engines the original driver had with the option to use the same engine usage strategy.

So . . . If I am following this argument correctly, the engine usage rule is NOT totally insane. Just mostly insane.

But seriously (NOT!) where DOES a car start with a 20-place penalty in a field of less than 20? Tomorrow?

Well mate, I don't make these rules...I just read them. But seriously?... You start from the last place...whatever place on the grid that might be. Unless of course someone else got a lot more grid demotion penalty than you do.

[Roland Ehnström]

Hmm... What if Kimi blows 8 engines (in practice sessions) but leads the championship. For race 9 Ferrari replaces Kimi with Gene, who takes over his penalty. For race 10 Kimi then replaces Massa, who has not blown a single engine earlier in the season. 8 new engines for Kimi?

[shir0]

Hmm... What if Kimi blows 8 engines (in practice sessions) but leads the championship. For race 9 Ferrari replaces Kimi with Gene, who takes over his penalty. For race 10 Kimi then replaces Massa, who has not blown a single engine earlier in the season. 8 new engines for Kimi?

Kimi's 8 engines are Kimi's 8 engines. Massa's are Massa's. If Gene or Badoer, for some reason or another, needs to replace Kimi in any race, they will then use Kimi's set of 8 engines as they are at the point Kimi was replaced.

If, in your example then, Massa needs to be replaced but Kimi is ready again to race, Kimi will still have his own original set of 8 engines (used and unused alike). Whoever then of the two replacement drivers (Gene or Badoer) replaces Massa, then they will be using Massa's set of 8 engines. No switcheroo circus can be made.

[Roland Ehnström]

I understand that's how it's going to work (I was just joking), but it's actually not the wording of the rule.

[Conceptual]

Hmm... What if Kimi blows 8 engines (in practice sessions) but leads the championship. For race 9 Ferrari replaces Kimi with Gene, who takes over his penalty. For race 10 Kimi then replaces Massa, who has not blown a single engine earlier in the season. 8 new engines for Kimi?

Kimi's 8 engines are Kimi's 8 engines. Massa's are Massa's. If Gene or Badoer, for some reason or another, needs to replace Kimi in any race, they will then use Kimi's set of 8 engines as they are at the point Kimi was replaced.

If, in your example then, Massa needs to be replaced but Kimi is ready again to race, Kimi will still have his own original set of 8 engines (used and unused alike). Whoever then of the two replacement drivers (Gene or Badoer) replaces Massa, then they will be using Massa's set of 8 engines. No switcheroo circus can be made.

Is there wording in the regs to stop this from happening, like the reg about third drivers?

Because, if Gene were to replace Kimi as in this example, those engines now belong to Gene, not Kimi, and if Kimi were to then replace Massa, those engines, by what was posted above, would then be Kimi's.

Artcle 28.4 of the '09 F1 Sporting Code wrote:
b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to
be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.

Since Gene would by this rule be deemed the original driver of Kimi's car, and Kimi would no longer be tied to it, so how would those engines follow Kimi to Massa's car when they are now Genes, and Gene is still racing?

Can you point out where it states that this cannot be done?

Thanks!

[shir0]

Is there wording in the regs to stop this from happening, like the reg about third drivers?

Because, if Gene were to replace Kimi as in this example, those engines now belong to Gene, not Kimi, and if Kimi were to then replace Massa, those engines, by what was posted above, would then be Kimi's.

Artcle 28.4 of the '09 F1 Sporting Code wrote:
b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.

Since Gene would by this rule be deemed the original driver of Kimi's car, and Kimi would no longer be tied to it, so how would those engines follow Kimi to Massa's car when they are now Genes, and Gene is still racing?

Can you point out where it states that this cannot be done?

Thanks!

Conceptual, first of all, let me state now that I'm not an expert on this thing nor am I a...(what was that I've been called at the Spa incident discussion?)... o yes... FIA Lawyer.

I make my "opinions" based on what I understood the regs are saying. And I'm not saying anyone not agreeable to my opinions are wrong. I just hold on to mine until someone else with authority over what's being discussed has refuted them or a clearly defined regulation which countermands my opinion is found. Which basically says "Nyepppp <munching on a carrot>...I could be wrong you know..."

Now that I've dispensed with my DISCLAIMER..

I think the enabling phrase in the part of the regs you've quoted, Conceptual, is "the original driver".

It would be safe to assume that Kimi and Massa are the two original drivers of SFM in your example. So then Gene/Badoer replaces Kimi (due to being temporarily disabled) for a race or two. Gene/Badoer then takes over Kimi's set of 8-engines so they can race in place of Kimi. Mind you, it's still KIMI's set of 8-engines...not Gene's/Badoer's, even if they use all of those 8-engines.

When Kimi gets back and ready to race again, he takes over his own set of 8-engines which were never considered as Gene's/Badoer's. Kimi cannot replace Massa because he can't use Massa's engines as he has his own unique set of 8-engines. What happens then is that Gene/Badoer relinquishes the "temporary" use of Kimi's set of engines and will now use Massa's set of engines as one of them (Gene/Badoer) replaces Massa.

The key thing is (I think), under the regs, you have two cars, two drivers, and a "third" or replacement driver. The "third"/replacement driver doesn't have his own set of 8-engines (or the regs doesn't have a clause specifically allowing for it). What's so confusing about Ferrari is that they have two possible "third"/replacement driver available.

Of course, like I've said above...I COULD MOST DEFINITELY BE WRONG.

[Conceptual]

I think the enabling phrase in the part of the regs you've quoted, Conceptual, is "the original driver".

It would be safe to assume that Kimi and Massa are the two original drivers of SFM in your example. So then Gene/Badoer replaces Kimi (due to being temporarily disabled) for a race or two. Gene/Badoer then takes over Kimi's set of 8-engines so they can race in place of Kimi. Mind you, it's still KIMI's set of 8-engines...not Gene's/Badoer's, even if they use all of those 8-engines.

No, it states that Kimi will be supplanted by Gene/Badoer as the "original driver". Thus, Kimi loses any attachment to the engines. "If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage"

When Kimi gets back and ready to race again, he takes over his own set of 8-engines which were never considered as Gene's/Badoer's.

Only if he replaces Badoer, and is reconsidered as the original driver.

Kimi cannot replace Massa because he can't use Massa's engines as he has his own unique set of 8-engines. What happens then is that Gene/Badoer relinquishes the "temporary" use of Kimi's set of engines and will now use Massa's set of engines as one of them (Gene/Badoer) replaces Massa.

Now you are making up regulations to support your personal opinion? Where does it even alude to that being the case?

Good thing that you bracketed this with disclaimers, because it is fiction unless you can provide a specific rule that prohibits it, other than the one that you made up.

[shir0]

We'll see...

[jddh1]

...Which basically says "Nyepppp <munching on a carrot>...I could be wrong you know..."

[Conceptual]

We'll see...

When?

When it is tried, or when you dig through the regs and find a supporting statement?

[shir0]

like I said, "...until someone else with authority over what's being discussed has refuted them or a clearly defined regulation which countermands my opinion is found."

why ask? have you found one? Don't tell me you're an F1 steward now...

[CMSMJ1]

There are rules as to how many drivers you can use. You cannot swap drivers all year long as you wish.

The description of events by Shir0 is pretty accurate - in my opinion..

I have more F1 experience than you Conceptual..so you go prove us wrong by checking the regs yourself?