2022 Regs

[DarthPlagueisTheVise]

Why exactly are 2022 cars getting heavier? I thought their objective was to make the cars lighter. And I am kind of a technical noob so the answer is probably quite simple.

[Jolle]

Why exactly are 2022 cars getting heavier? I thought their objective was to make the cars lighter. And I am kind of a technical noob so the answer is probably quite simple.

I don’t recall the rules were setup to make the cars lighter. Just less interfering to each other.

Weight, especially loosing it is expensive. With every kilogram the cost goes up exponentially.
Mercedes for instance can run a lightweight chassis because they could afford to only use them for 7-8 races, so they can run a more heavy water-air intercooler. With the new cost cap, weight savings are far more difficult.

[DarthPlagueisTheVise]

Why exactly are 2022 cars getting heavier? I thought their objective was to make the cars lighter. And I am kind of a technical noob so the answer is probably quite simple.

I don’t recall the rules were setup to make the cars lighter. Just less interfering to each other.

Weight, especially loosing it is expensive. With every kilogram the cost goes up exponentially.
Mercedes for instance can run a lightweight chassis because they could afford to only use them for 7-8 races, so they can run a more heavy water-air intercooler. With the new cost cap, weight savings are far more difficult.

Thanks for the reply !

[FW17]

Why exactly are 2022 cars getting heavier? I thought their objective was to make the cars lighter. And I am kind of a technical noob so the answer is probably quite simple.

Did you not see the new wheels and tyres? Do you expect them to weight?

[jjn9128]

The new tyres and wheels are a big chunk, reducing cost and improving safety is another chunk.

It's annoying though that when F1 cars used to be 600kg some teams had <80kg of ballast loaded and they were designed and built for less money than the budget cap.

[Just_a_fan]

The new tyres and wheels are a big chunk, reducing cost and improving safety is another chunk.

It's annoying though that when F1 cars used to be 600kg some teams had <80kg of ballast loaded and they were designed and built for less money than the budget cap.

Isn't the issue today that the teams have gone from spending money on new computers and improved wind tunnels, to spending it on ever more complex dynos, simulators etc.? All in order to find ways to make a car that is substantially heavier than the old V10 as quick, or quicker, than they were. The extra weight alone should make them 4 - 5 seconds / lap slower, but they aren't.

In effect, they have been required to add 25% extra mass to the cars and have still managed to make them the quickest F1 cars in history. And that is always going to be expensive when faced by restrictive rules (easy in a free-for-all, as Porsche showed).

[mclaren111]

It's because they allow the teams to right the rules...

These cars are way too long for instance... "Safety" is often used as an excuse the get what they want in the rules...

[jjn9128]

Isn't the issue today that the teams have gone from spending money on new computers and improved wind tunnels, to spending it on ever more complex dynos, simulators etc.? All in order to find ways to make a car that is substantially heavier than the old V10 as quick, or quicker, than they were. The extra weight alone should make them 4 - 5 seconds / lap slower, but they aren't.

In effect, they have been required to add 25% extra mass to the cars and have still managed to make them the quickest F1 cars in history. And that is always going to be expensive when faced by restrictive rules (easy in a free-for-all, as Porsche showed).

It's a self defeating circle. Make the cars heavier slows the cars, to go faster you need more downforce, more downforce you corner faster, you corner faster you need better safety, you improve safety it increases weight, so you need laptime from more downforce, more downforce makes it harder to follow... etc I wouldn't say the racing now is any better than it was in 2004/05, just the inclusion of DRS papers over the gaps. I don't know what the solution is, other than appointing me emperor of F1

Compared to the v10 era modern cars lose about 4.5s/lap due to weight, gain 2.8s/lap due to the power (compared to the BMW ~950bhp), gain about 5s/lap from downforce, and lose ~1s from drag. So 2020 cars should be ~2.5s/lap quicker - difficulty is finding a track which has the exact same configuration now as in 2005, Monza I think is the only one (maybe Hungary depending on when T1 profile was changed?), where pole in '05 was 1:21.054 compared to 1:18.887 in '20 (a 2.167s difference).

[Just_a_fan]

It's a self defeating circle. Make the cars heavier slows the cars, to go faster you need more downforce, more downforce you corner faster, you corner faster you need better safety, you improve safety it increases weight,

Just look at the halo. That's added about 20kg to the weight of the cars. That's for the halo itself and also for the additional chassis structure required to take the test loads. Now there are some that say dump the halo, it's heavy and ugly, etc., but it's probably saved lives already so it's not going anywhere unless someone comes up with an equally strong system to replace it.

[Jolle]

Arrr arrrr bring back the V10’s arrrr that was racing then arrr arrr its all the fault of aarrr arrr

Why not go back to the little 1.5 liter four cilinders with no downforce? Formula Ford on steroids?

As long as I can remember (been watching since the mid eighties), the old folk of the time always complained that cars were getting heavier, bigger, that it wasn’t the racing it used to be (back then its was the call to go back to the cigars from the sixties).

[jjn9128]

Just look at the halo. That's added about 20kg to the weight of the cars. That's for the halo itself and also for the additional chassis structure required to take the test loads. Now there are some that say dump the halo, it's heavy and ugly, etc., but it's probably saved lives already so it's not going anywhere unless someone comes up with an equally strong system to replace it.

The monocoque is one of the lighter parts along the spine of the car. Go back to 2008 a monocoque was ~55kg, add 20kg for a halo it's still only 75kg, I think the side intrusion panels added ~5kg, plus there's a new front intrusion panel coming after the Hubert/Correa accident. The batteries/inverter add another 30.6kg, though I guess you could classify this as useful ballast as it's placed low down in a similar region that ballast would be placed in the 2000s. So say 80-85kg now (excluding ballasts). The bigger increase is the PU going from 95kg to 150kg.

There's a cool diagram of masses from Honda 3rd era papers.

[FW17]

Also need to aff the additional weight of brakes next year. They will be moving from carbon disc to ceramic disc. For the current size of 13 inches the weight increase will be 5.5 kgs per corner.

If you factor the additional size of 2018 brakes it would be 1.5 times heavier, 8.8 kgs a corner or 35 kgs.

[jjn9128]

Arrr arrrr bring back the V10’s arrrr that was racing then arrr arrr its all the fault of aarrr arrr

Why not go back to the little 1.5 liter four cilinders with no downforce? Formula Ford on steroids?

As long as I can remember (been watching since the mid eighties), the old folk of the time always complained that cars were getting heavier, bigger, that it wasn’t the racing it used to be (back then its was the call to go back to the cigars from the sixties).

I don't think that's what this discussion has devolved into (yet maybe). The 1.5litre turbos weighed ~150kg all in so they weren't that small

[Jolle]

Arrr arrrr bring back the V10’s arrrr that was racing then arrr arrr its all the fault of aarrr arrr

Why not go back to the little 1.5 liter four cilinders with no downforce? Formula Ford on steroids?

As long as I can remember (been watching since the mid eighties), the old folk of the time always complained that cars were getting heavier, bigger, that it wasn’t the racing it used to be (back then its was the call to go back to the cigars from the sixties).

I don't think that's what this discussion has devolved into (yet maybe). The 1.5litre turbos weighed ~150kg all in so they weren't that small

I was referring to the 1.5 natural aspirated engines from when F1 cars were really light, around 450 kg for a lotus 18.

[Just_a_fan]

The rules mandate the weight of the PU, don't they? Given a chance, the teams would have reduced those by development over the years. But that would have been a spending war, which is not something the FIA / most of the teams want to see.