Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

[RaceFan1]

IMO, the FIA almost never does anything anymore, unless they are made to look foolish or wanting. it's a reactionary organization.
[/quote]

The FIA should have no needed to go after any team if they pass their scrutineering. Protests or technical questions can be asked by the competitors for clarifications.

[dans79]

The FIA should have no needed to go after any team if they pass their scrutineering. Protests or technical questions can be asked by the competitors for clarifications.

if they did that, they would have no need for rules like this.

3.9.9

In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.8 are respected, the FIA reserves the
right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to
be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion.

Imo, since the FIA is a governing body, they should be looking for potential violations and bending of the rules.

[RZS10]

The gif quoted in that planetf1 article looks ... manipulated (?) - look at the crash structure and the support pillar, it's all bending out of shape.
One can compare it with the footage it's supposedly taken from and the wing does wobble a lot and does tilt but it doesn't appear to be consistent as it seems to move up and down even on the straight but most importantly the support pillar stays upright and the crash structure doesn't move at all ... but judge for yourself, you can place your mouse cursor over certain elements to check for movement.

Video (source for the gif)


Gif


Regarding the supposed "snap" of the wing on turn in ... i don't really see it tbh

Interesting tweet though from the chief editor of motorsport-total (part of the motorsport network afaik) on whether they'll translate that article from their italian sister site:

"We still have too little information on this for us to be writing an article about it. But we are watching the issue. As soon as we think there's something to it, we'll write about it. As long as we are just speculating as well there is no point."

They did run a short clickbait article where they threw in those garbage gifs combined with a quote from Wolff that the wing was legal but never a full piece.

Threw last years Merc wing into the comparison, the second one is the RBR wing from Austria last year and all the others are from this year.


Absolutely no one was "on the line" for anything last season - it was a few articles which were all based on some supposed observations by an italian journo - and then to suggest it was "mainly" Mercedes is weird when comparing the two wings.

[PhillipM]

The FIA should have no needed to go after any team if they pass their scrutineering. Protests or technical questions can be asked by the competitors for clarifications.

Scrutineering is not a legality or compliance inspection, it's not thorough enough for that, it's some basic checks and mainly a 'car seems safe to race' pass

[peaty]

Teams will always point out what they think benefits them, or hinders a competitor. Renault protesting racing point last year is a perfect example.

yeah, they sure do. The key word tough is protest. Did Mercedes protest!? As far as I'm aware they didn't. Did Mercedes seek clarification!? Again, as far as I know they didn't (does talking to the media counts as any of those!?).
So why is the FIA stepping in now!? And yes I know they can change the test procedure but the decision is...controversial to say the least. Not because of the decision itself but because of the time and form.

In other words Mercedes made the the FIA look lackadaisical, and thus the FIA was forced to act!

If that's the real reason...The FIA have now the exact same evidence they had last season. This is not Mercedes suddenly finding out something that nobody else knew.

[b2bL44]

The question about if it's legal or not legal is boring. What's relevant is that evidently, new tests will come that will ensure the wings are more rigid.

The more spicy question is from my view:

1.) how much (performance) will they [RedBull] lose when the wing will have to be more rigid?

2.) if they don't change it before the new tests will come in, will they be subject to a formal protest by a competing team?

1) Depends who you ask. Mark Hughes is under the assumption the difference will be insignificant, checkout the latest podcast on The Race. However Matthew Somerfield is convinced there could be repercussions for the rear tyre temps/wear on the RB16B. We'll have to wait a few races to find out.

2) Potentially. If competitors who are already complying want to kick up a fuss against teams who may not yet be operating under the new testing rules, why not have a go? Even if the FiA take no action you've managed to distract your competitor.

3) Ferrari will be using Karun Chandhok on the SkyPad

[ltitus8900]

Hello all, I think the correct question to ask is, how much does the wing need to bend and/or behave in order to maintain a steady advange close to what Lewis is stating?

You're drastically overthinking this.

everything on the car except the tires, and the suspension components are all "rigidly" connected. It doesn't matter if the front end squats, the rear end squats, or the car's airborne and perpendicular to the ground.

Everything on the car will remain in the same position within the cameras field of view. It's all moving together. If you see movement, it's because something is moving or flexing relative to the other components.

Great, not disputing that at all, I'm disputing if the wing is bending illegally, I want to make sure it is.

This entire conversation has gone pretty much like this.

The wing bends, we see it on video. Ok we all agree there right? I see it, you see it, we are all in agreement it's as clear as the sun. No complaints so far right?

Then we move on to the next step, is it illegal?

That is my question to all of you, maybe I'm overthinking it, maybe I'm not, but my thinking is irrelevant here, let's focus on the important part, is the wing bending illegally? That is after all the main crux here right? Why we are all rousing the rabble.

If we examine the video carefully the most obvious part of everything is that we have a Mercedes wing, and a Red Bull wing. The Mercedes wing CLEARLY looks like it bends and deforms less than the Red Bull wing. We agree here still correct? No argument from me here so far. I agree the Red Bull wing appears to bend more than the Mercedes wing. So far we are all in agreement and the world is a wonderful place.

Here is where we disagree, and please correct me if I got this wrong.

The Mercedes wing is the benchmark upon which all wing legalities shall be measured upon, for although ALL the wings bend due to aero load, the Mercedes wing is by default, the very definition of legality and thus, the ONLY way a wing should deform under load. By decree of the FIA and Mercedes' exemplary rear wing deformation, all other competitors must have the same or less wing deformation. So sayeth the Forum.

To me that sounds pretty crazy, and I would like a little more due process than rule by decree.

My question, which I admit is a complex one to answer, is, by how much is the Red Bull wing illegally deforming compared to the benchmark Mercedes rear wing which is without question in its legality? That's all, it's a straightforward question that is met with some interesting evidence.

It seems that other cars exhibit the same behavior as the Red Bull, in that we should also be in agreement. The Williams's rear wing deformation for example is in line with the benchmark of legality Mercedes, and thus they deserve no scrutiny. Haas? A backmarker, Toto tells them to get out of the way who cares what they're doing.

The other cars like the Alpine and Ferrari also exhibit this behavior, but we all know the Red Bull's wing is the most illegal because there was a video with white square grids which showed the wing moving a whole square but not a whole square on Mercedes. Again implying Mercedes deformation is perfectly legal and without question and the benchmark that all other cars must abide by.

I agree with you guys, the Red Bull wing is the most illegal because they are the biggest threat to Mercedes, that makes them the dirtiest cheaters, just like Ferrari and their cheating engine in 2019 when they started threatening Mercedes. I agree Red Bull's wing is the most illegal that's why the FIA is stepping in and forcing stricter tests, we don't want cheaters. I agree cheating is shameful, but that's my personal belief and has no place here.

Anyway, yes the Red Bull wing is illegal, and the video clearly shows it, and so the final question remains, by how much is it illegal? No one can answer that here, but we are sure it's illegal because when compared to the Mercedes wing it's doing something that the Mercedes wing doesn't seem to do. All factors have been accounted for so there is no way any optical illusions or bias are playing tricks on us, it's clearly illegal, and the video shows it.

So again, I ask the most pertinent question, the video shows the wing bending, so by how much more is the wing bending on the Red Bull than on the Mercedes? Can anyone quantify it, the difference between the two wings at speed and at rest? If I get mocked for 2mm how can I take 10 pixels seriously, when it's an even dumber metric for the wing's illegality? I'm sorry, but would any of you take me seriously if I told you 10 pixels were the difference in Verstappen nailing a corner vs Hamilton? I'm supposed to believe 10 pixels mean the difference between Red Bull and Mercedes illegality? Okie dokie.

I'm sorry that this post is off topic, but it's replying to a post that should be deleted or at least fact checked.

The FIA wrote to all the teams, and new tests apply to everyone, not just Red Bull.

The stuff about "Mercedes benchmark" is ridiculous, it's the FIA that scrutinize cars to meet the current regulations.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/scrutineering.html

It was Red Bull that complained to the FIA about Ferrari!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/red-b ... 9/4986309/

Red Bull gets F1 fuel flow rule clarification amid Ferrari intrigue

The Red Bull Racing Formula 1 team has written to the FIA for clarification over a potential loophole it believes could be used to 'beat' the fuel flow regulations

[ispano6]

..

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/65373/fl ... utiny.html

The guys from Motorsport.com noticed last weekend at the Mercedes that the rear wing 'snaps' above a certain speed with a rather abrupt movement to the inside of the corner and thus follows the rolling movement of the car.

...

It would be quite ironic if Mercedes were forced to make their flappy elements more rigid. The FIA should be consistent in enforcing rigidity in all observed moving parts of the car body, as stated in the rules. This SHOULD include any "incidental" movement of the shark fin and T-wings. It is indeed noticeable that the Mercedes wing dips on one side of the rear wing instead of uniformly. There could be counter-protest by a number of teams against Mercedes, couldn't there.

[Stu]

Hello all, I think the correct question to ask is, how much does the wing need to bend and/or behave in order to maintain a steady advange close to what Lewis is stating?

The reality is that LH cannot possibly have noticed the rear wing flex from the cockpit.
Adrian Newey has always pushed the envelope with aero. If you read the rules and build to comply with the letter of rules, you are legal.

[Just_a_fan]

..

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/65373/fl ... utiny.html

The guys from Motorsport.com noticed last weekend at the Mercedes that the rear wing 'snaps' above a certain speed with a rather abrupt movement to the inside of the corner and thus follows the rolling movement of the car.

...

It would be quite ironic if Mercedes were forced to make their flappy elements more rigid. The FIA should be consistent in enforcing rigidity in all observed moving parts of the car body, as stated in the rules. This SHOULD include any "incidental" movement of the shark fin and T-wings. It is indeed noticeable that the Mercedes wing dips on one side of the rear wing instead of uniformly. There could be counter-protest by a number of teams against Mercedes, couldn't there.

Would be useful if the article presented evidence. It just says "they saw it move". That's just gossip.

[RZS10]

That's about last year's wing anyways and the video that gossip is based on is a few posts up and there's no consistent dipping into corners ... but goes to show how easy one can convince people without evidence if they're susceptible enough based on 'team loyalty' ...lol

[peaty]

That's about last year's wing anyways and the video that gossip is based on is a few posts up and there's no consistent dipping into corners ... but goes to show how easy one can convince people without evidence if they're susceptible enough based on 'team loyalty' ...lol

Base on a few post up!? The evidence from last year are similar to the evidence from this year! All of them come from TV images provided by F1!

By the way, regulations don't talk about consistency or dipping into corners, regulations talk about flexing. Did the wing flex!? Yes, it did. So there's no debate about that! We can talk about how much flexing, the mode, etc but not if they were flexing.

The FIA started looking into this in mid/late June last season. By mid July they already had tougher load tests planned to prevent F1 teams using flexible rear wings. They didn't implement any change until May 2021, almost a year later!
As I said before, this is not about taking actions, it's about how and when! And we all know about the how and when!

[Pany]

You all dont understand is a political game and there are strong economic consequences. For the moment nobody will protest because red bull has to compet for title at least from now up to summer. Otherwise many people will stop watching f1 abd wait for next season. Ferrari mclaren and alpine will surely do nothing also because they are not competing against verstappen and dont want to spend more money to change wing design; they are already on next season. Finally Merco need verstapprn in this moment because bottas is zero level. Without redbull they will fight against nobody and theyr brand not visoble at all. As usula they woll rise up engine and make evential other protest in the summer to secure titles. Not now

[RZS10]

That's about last year's wing anyways and the video that gossip is based on is a few posts up and there's no consistent dipping into corners ... but goes to show how easy one can convince people without evidence if they're susceptible enough based on 'team loyalty' ...lol

Base on a few post up!? The evidence from last year are similar to the evidence from this year! All of them come from TV images provided by F1!

By the way, regulations don't talk about consistency or dipping into corners, regulations talk about flexing. Did the wing flex!? Yes, it did. So there's no debate about that! We can talk about how much flexing, the mode, etc but not if they were flexing.

The FIA started looking into this in mid/late June last season. By mid July they already had tougher load tests planned to prevent F1 teams using flexible rear wings. They didn't implement any change until May 2021, almost a year later!
As I said before, this is not about taking actions, it's about how and when! And we all know about the how and when!

1. Why are you yelling (!) ?
2. I replied to the posts about the supposed "snap tilt on turn in" right above the post you quoted
3. I did post a gif and the video (the source for Nugnes speculation) which shows that the wing flexes so i don't understand why you think that i believe it wouldn't flex?
4. The consistency of the tilting is definitely a factor to determine how 'wanted' the flexing is, if a wing drops by an inch and stays in that position on the entire straight it's better designed and specificly designed to do it, if it wobbles it's either not as well designed and/or some of the flexing is incidental (but not detrimental to performance).

Speaking of which: Last year's Merc wing looks like it tilted more than this year's wing, however this year's wing seems more consistent in the way it dips.

As you write we can only compare the amount of flex, the consistency etc and we know that all of that was perfectly fine according to the previous tests, but we don't know whether any of the wings from this or last year would fail the new test and by how much.

The timeline is indeed interesting, some here seem to believe that the FIA came up with new tests on the fly simply because one driver (LH) mentioned those wings when in reality it must have been planned long ago, Wolff and Horner admittedly talked about this even before those statements to the media so they knew it was coming.

Why they are introducing the tests now is something we can only spectulate about ...

Did (more) teams start bending the rules (pun intended) further than the FIA deems acceptable?
Did it take that long to come up with the exact specifics of the test (loads, positions etc) to limit flexing to an acceptable amount?
Of course some will believe that the FIA doesn't want to RBR to be successful but that's terrible tinfoil territory.

[politburo]

I have to ask. Isn't part of this vertical displacement narrative down to differing setups in the rear suspension?. From the video it looks like it's far stiffer on Merc perhaps to improve rear stability - a problem the Merc had in preseason testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWUefS ... tsRacingF1

Regardless, it will be interesting to see if they find anyone in violation of their new tests.