Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

[dans79]

To put it another way the FIA are trying to set a rate of deflection/load that's okay, and as soon as you're outside the test range they're circumventing that. It's the FIA's own fault really, they should be running at least a pair of tests instead of a single one.

The simplest and most straightforward set of tests would probably be to require the wings be tested in real world conditions. It might even be possible with the wind tunnels the teams already own.

[SmallSoldier]

To put it another way the FIA are trying to set a rate of deflection/load that's okay, and as soon as you're outside the test range they're circumventing that. It's the FIA's own fault really, they should be running at least a pair of tests instead of a single one.

The simplest and most straightforward set of tests would probably be to require the wings be tested in real world conditions. It might even be possible with the wind tunnels the teams already own.

Only problem is performing the test during scrutineering at a GP

The test has to be able to be performed at the track.


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[SiLo]

To put it another way the FIA are trying to set a rate of deflection/load that's okay, and as soon as you're outside the test range they're circumventing that. It's the FIA's own fault really, they should be running at least a pair of tests instead of a single one.

The simplest and most straightforward set of tests would probably be to require the wings be tested in real world conditions. It might even be possible with the wind tunnels the teams already own.

Just attach a rod from the back of the camera housing to the rear wing top flap with a smaller rod inside that can extend and then measure the deflection. Tell the teams to hit 180mph on a straight with the rod installed and sorted. About as real world as you can get.

[Just_a_fan]

To put it another way the FIA are trying to set a rate of deflection/load that's okay, and as soon as you're outside the test range they're circumventing that. It's the FIA's own fault really, they should be running at least a pair of tests instead of a single one.

The simplest and most straightforward set of tests would probably be to require the wings be tested in real world conditions. It might even be possible with the wind tunnels the teams already own.

Doesn't even need to be a motorsport tunnel. Anywhere big enough to take a car and chuck enough air at it will do. Deflection of the upper front flaps or the rear wing doesn't really rely on ground effect so a moving ground isn't necessary. Getting sufficient wind speed is the key.

On track testing can be done with cameras and tracking stickers. You just watch the sticker and see where it moves relative to its at-rest location in the camera's field of view. Then just watch what it does on track during a lap. Set limits for how much it can move in any direction at given speeds - say 100km/h, 200km/h and 300km/h with perhaps a higher speed figure than that for the high speed tracks. Track the endplate, 1/4 span and midspan at leading edge, mid chord and trailing edge locations and you've got it covered. 15 points on each wing - actually, you could just track one side of the wing to keep data volume within sensible limits. Which side of the wing is tracked is decided on Saturday before qualifying. Teams to place the stickers on the Friday and then the FIA just decides which bit to track. Teams don't get told so they can't play games.

Or you could just let the teams have flexi wings and have a decent penalty for any that fail structurally on track. There needs to be a decent team punishment to reduce the chance of a team doing something silly and causing a huge crash when the rear wing falls off.

[Hoffman900]

To put it another way the FIA are trying to set a rate of deflection/load that's okay, and as soon as you're outside the test range they're circumventing that. It's the FIA's own fault really, they should be running at least a pair of tests instead of a single one.

The simplest and most straightforward set of tests would probably be to require the wings be tested in real world conditions. It might even be possible with the wind tunnels the teams already own.

Agreed.

Also, the FIA is being way more lenient than any sanctioning body I've ever seen. Even in amatuer racing, you show up with anything like this, and they figure out what you're doing, you're dq'ed or told "it better not be on there the next session". I've never seen a sanctioning body so afraid of the competitors.

The FIA screws themselves here:
"In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.8 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load / deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion".

The gotcha that might hurt Mercedes' protest is the load / deflection part. It should be "in any matter deemed reasonable" or something to that effect. However, Mercedes could claim observed movement in motion is a "deflection test", especially if they quantify it.

[dans79]

Or you could just let the teams have flexi wings and have a decent penalty for any that fail structurally on track. There needs to be a decent team punishment to reduce the chance of a team doing something silly and causing a huge crash when the rear wing falls off.

I think that's the biggest sticking point of this entire issue. The FIA used to throw the book at people, but now it seems they care more about not affecting the show, than they do about enforcing the rules. Thus they either publish a technical directive so they don't have to publicly penalize someone, or they do something like these rule changes were they give an excessive period of time for teams to make changes.

[JordanMugen]

Just a thought on the timing of this bendy wing protest, could it be that Mercs knew about the RB's bendy wing for a very long time

Well it's been on the Red Bull car since last season, so they certainly knew about it.

I don't understand why Mercedes, in that rather long time frame, didn't just build their own version instead of making a fuss about it?

Building the rear wing end plates as a kind of composite cantilever spring is hardly exotic engineering, it should be quite straight-forward for all the composite departments up and down pit lane.

As far as I am concerned, Red Bull's interpretation is straight-forward and fully compliant within the requirements of scrutineering.

I think that's the biggest sticking point of this entire issue. The FIA used to throw the book at people, but now it seems they care more about not affecting the show, than they do about enforcing the rules.

The points is that flexible rear wings, flexible front wings and flexible sharkfins all comply with the rules. "Throwing the books" at Formula One teams for merely complying with the rules as required would be most bizarre and unprecedented.

[Hoffman900]

Just a thought on the timing of this bendy wing protest, could it be that Mercs knew about the RB's bendy wing for a very long time

Well it's been on the Red Bull car since last season, so they certainly knew about it.

I don't understand why Mercedes, in that rather long time frame, didn't just build their own version instead of making a fuss about it?

Building the rear wing end plates as a kind of composite cantilever spring is hardly exotic engineering.

The FIA should have clamped down (pun intended) this last July, instead of dilly-daddling for a year, and now it has championship implications, for either team.

There just seems to be a lot, from the teams to the FIA, of (pretending to be) "we're sophisticated and suave and we handle things like sophisticated and suave gentlemen" when all it does is create a mess. I found in managing big teams, you have to be firm and direct. That doesn't mean you're mean, anything but, but you can't be wishy-washy.

For all its wrongs, this is what NASCAR has always done right. They know how to run the show. Every weekend, it's another FIA controversy because they refuse to take firm stances on things, from track limits to flexible body work.

[JordanMugen]

Also, the FIA is being way more lenient than any sanctioning body I've ever seen. Even in amatuer racing, you show up with anything like this, and they figure out what you're doing, you're dq'ed or told "it better not be on there the next session". I've never seen a sanctioning body so afraid of the competitors.

This item (rear wings) complies with the rules.

It's not like it's a car running underweight, when it would be excluded immediately.

[Hoffman900]

Also, the FIA is being way more lenient than any sanctioning body I've ever seen. Even in amatuer racing, you show up with anything like this, and they figure out what you're doing, you're dq'ed or told "it better not be on there the next session". I've never seen a sanctioning body so afraid of the competitors.

This item (rear wings) complies with the rules.

It's not like it's a car running underweight, when it would be excluded immediately.

And the rules stipulate that "flexible body work is illegal" and that "the FIA can come up with a load/deflection test at any time". IMO they shot themselves in the foot by specifying the test. They should have included "video evidence, laser measurement, etc" or whatever technologies may work.

This is the problem with too many rules. By spelling everything out, you are only beholden to that. They could simply say "No flexible body work PERIOD". No tests... "if we see it moving, it's gone".

Kudos to RedBull, shame on FIA. Kudos to RedBull for getting away with this for so long, shame on the FIA for taking no action to fix this, even when this was apparent last July. Inaction is still an action.

[ESPImperium]

My stance, I hope Red Bull run their wing at Baku, then for them to count her protest the Mercedes front wing at the Y250 section as it flexes. I really want this season to be a battle of the teams as well as drivers, get as much bad blood between them as is required.

I am a fan of active aero, allow the teams to split the rear wing into two, with a wing that can adapt to the corner as well. However, the active aero can only be used for three 5 lap spells in the race.

I am wondering if this will lead to sensors being attached to the cars that the FIA are only allowed to access where they monitor the wing flex via a small QR code type panel on the rear wing on the upper corner.

[JordanMugen]

For all its wrongs, this is what NASCAR has always done right. They know how to run the show. Every weekend, it's another FIA controversy because they refuse to take firm stances on things, from track limits to flexible body work.

This is the problem with too many rules. By spelling everything out, you are only beholden to that. They could simply say "No flexible body work PERIOD".

In other words the argument would most likely be that the FIA knows some teams are in violation of the Spirit of the rules and Mercedes thinks Red Bull is one of them.

The "spirit of the rules" clause is one of the first clauses in the V8 Supercar regulations, and I imagine the NASCAR regulations too (though I haven't read those). The V8 Supercars rules even say, "Unless these rules specifically say you can, then you cannot."

There is NO spirit of the rules clause in the F1 technical regulations, and the FIA and teams both work on this basis. This is a VERY important point. Formula One very deliberately does not have this clause.

You can't say, "oh, enforce it like NASCAR"... NASCAR has a spirit of the rules clause, Formula One, very deliberately, does not.

This is the problem with too many rules. By spelling everything out, you are only beholden to that. They could simply say "No flexible body work PERIOD".

F1 is absolutely about the letter of the rules and no more. This is intentional. They are not going to disqualify every single car for having flexible front wings, that would make Formula One look ridiculous and bring the sport into disrepute. Even disqualifying 8 out of 20 for having "excessively" flexible rear wings will make the sport look very silly.

[Hoffman900]

My stance, I hope Red Bull run their wing at Baku, then for them to count her protest the Mercedes front wing at the Y250 section as it flexes. I really want this season to be a battle of the teams as well as drivers, get as much bad blood between them as is required.

I am a fan of active aero, allow the teams to split the rear wing into two, with a wing that can adapt to the corner as well. However, the active aero can only be used for three 5 lap spells in the race.

I am wondering if this will lead to sensors being attached to the cars that the FIA are only allowed to access where they monitor the wing flex via a small QR code type panel on the rear wing on the upper corner.

RedBull will have their own problems with the front wing as well.

[Hoffman900]

This is the problem with too many rules. By spelling everything out, you are only beholden to that. They could simply say "No flexible body work PERIOD".

In other words the argument would most likely be that the FIA knows some teams are in violation of the Spirit of the rules and Mercedes thinks Red Bull is one of them.

The "spirit of the rules" clause is one of the first clauses in the V8 Supercar regulations, and I imagine the NASCAR regulations too (though I haven't read those).

There is NO spirit of the rules clause in the F1 technical regulations, and the FIA and teams both work on this basis. This is a VERY important point. Formula One very deliberately does not have this clause.

You can't say, "oh, enforce it like NASCAR"... NASCAR has a spirit of the rules clause, Formula One, very deliberately, does not.

This is fair, but there doesn't need to be a spirit of the rules clause when the rule specifically says flexible body work isn't allow. It's spelled out.

The problem is that the FIA prescribed in detail, the method of enforcement. That's where they went wrong. You need to leave ambiguity in your enforcement options. Because they didn't, RB designed to the test and leaves the FIA with less of a leg to stand on.

I've run construction projects in excess of $125mil USD. Contracts, rule books, etc. it's all the same thing.

[JordanMugen]

RedBull will have their own problems with the front wing as well.

Yes, but it will highlight the farce of how every single car out there has flexible bodywork...

This is fair, but there doesn't need to be a spirit of the rules clause when the rule specifically says flexible body work isn't allow. It's spelled out.

All very well, but every single car out there has flexible bodywork. Are you going to disqualify every single car from the race?

The problem is that the FIA prescribed in detail, the method of enforcement. That's where they went wrong.

I strongly disagree.

The FIA made a rule, rear wing load test, Red Bull made a rear wing that complies with this rule. There plainly is no wrong-doing on either side. It's all perfectly fine. A reasonable test and a reasonable, perfectly legal rear wing.

The only "error" out there is that Mercedes, for some reason, chose not to build one of these perfectly legal rear wings that are worth a little bit of laptime.