2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Wouter]

Is there any truth about Honda engines struggling with vibrations, and hence unable to unleash their full power?

https://www.formu1a.uno/le-vibrazioni-d ... -red-bull/

Also, is this something that can be fixed with a reliability upgrade?

If that story were true, all the major F1 sites would have written about it.
That would be big and important news about the Honda engine.
No other site has written about it. So you can assume that the info is not correct.

[Marti_EF3]

Is there any truth about Honda engines struggling with vibrations, and hence unable to unleash their full power?

https://www.formu1a.uno/le-vibrazioni-d ... -red-bull/

Also, is this something that can be fixed with a reliability upgrade?

If that story were true, all the major F1 sites would have written about it.
That would be big and important news about the Honda engine.
No other site has written about it. So you can assume that the info is not correct.

Every year since 2015 there are vibrations on it. But since Honda joining RB, it's cool vibrations

[Wouter]

Helmut Marko.
"We are changing our wing so that it passes the FIA's new test at the scheduled time. But we can only do that after Baku.
We have to change the whole rear end and you can't just build a new wing".
Marko understands Mercedes' frustration, but also points to the German team when it comes to flexible wings.

"It's part of F1 that teams look at each other if there is something special on the car. We did the same when Mercedes came around the corner with the DAS system last year. The FIA then declared it illegal, but they were allowed to use it until the last race. We accepted that, but isn't Mercedes doing the same with our rear wing now?"

The doctor of law, however, does not believe that Mercedes is really protesting against the result of Baku. “Mercedes would have to protest against eight cars. Because in addition to us, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo and Alpine are also affected. Do you really want to do that and cause a major scandal? I do not think so."

Original source: https://f1-insider.com/formel-1-red-bul ... -mercedes/

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/85097/ma ... lowed.html

[Hoffman900]

The only scandal is the FIA let 8+ teams get away with this for so long, despite it being against their own rules, and having the opening in the rules to change the test requirements and enforce it at any time.

If you want to force the hand of the FIA and make sure they enforce their own regulations in a timely manner, then maybe Mercedes has to make some waves here.

[Just_a_fan]

"It's part of F1 that teams look at each other if there is something special on the car. We did the same when Mercedes came around the corner with the DAS system last year. The FIA then declared it illegal, but they were allowed to use it until the last race. We accepted that, but isn't Mercedes doing the same with our rear wing now?"

Typical Marko making stuff up. DAS wasn't declared illegal. Indeed it was accepted as legal but then agreed that the rules would be changed to prevent it being used in future, in order to prevent a DAS-alike war with other teams developing it.

The difference between DAS and flexible wings is that Mercedes went through DAS with the FIA. Red Bull haven't gone to the FIA and said "we'll make a wing that passes the current test but then will flex much more at some point beyond the test loads". If they had, the FIA would have said "er, no you won't as that would be illegal".

[Sieper]

DAS was legal because it was not in the rules (yet) as illegal. It was seen as steering. But without actual steering going on that was quite hard to defend. So new rules were made that prevented it, but as it were new rules, only for the next year. No existing rules.

None of this has anything to do with RBR. Please stop this off-topic galore of 3 pages long.

[godlameroso]

Agree, people have a funny way to argue "it's ok when we do it". All this time they could have either made the rules stricter or Mercedes should have made their own flexi wing. It's not like they were or have ever been frugal in this f1 era.

[Pyrone89]

I seem to remember that oil burning regulations also weren't changed within 1 race. And Mercedes' front wing flexes alot more than RBR's as can be seen from onboard. So basically Mercedes wants to be treated different than Red Bull.

Anyway, however nice the Monaco GP win was, it was clear from Portugal and Spain that the Mercedes is still clearly the car to beat, especially on race day. So I still think it is 85% chance Hamilton gets the WDC due to having a better car (again). But if we ask which has been the better DRIVER up till now (and if this continues the whole season) it is clearly Verstappen. We could end up with a 2012 scenario with the best driver not winning due to the other top driver having the better car.

[etusch]

"It's part of F1 that teams look at each other if there is something special on the car. We did the same when Mercedes came around the corner with the DAS system last year. The FIA then declared it illegal, but they were allowed to use it until the last race. We accepted that, but isn't Mercedes doing the same with our rear wing now?"

Typical Marko making stuff up. DAS wasn't declared illegal. Indeed it was accepted as legal but then agreed that the rules would be changed to prevent it being used in future, in order to prevent a DAS-alike war with other teams developing it.

The difference between DAS and flexible wings is that Mercedes went through DAS with the FIA. Red Bull haven't gone to the FIA and said "we'll make a wing that passes the current test but then will flex much more at some point beyond the test loads". If they had, the FIA would have said "er, no you won't as that would be illegal".

If I am wrong please correct me.

* before flexible wing ban by a rule it was also not in rules and not illegal wasn't it ?

* when the first time merc asked das to FIA, FIA had said that it is illegal but it will be legal if they do it in a different way (fia say how it should be here but I just forgot )

[Just_a_fan]

"It's part of F1 that teams look at each other if there is something special on the car. We did the same when Mercedes came around the corner with the DAS system last year. The FIA then declared it illegal, but they were allowed to use it until the last race. We accepted that, but isn't Mercedes doing the same with our rear wing now?"

Typical Marko making stuff up. DAS wasn't declared illegal. Indeed it was accepted as legal but then agreed that the rules would be changed to prevent it being used in future, in order to prevent a DAS-alike war with other teams developing it.

The difference between DAS and flexible wings is that Mercedes went through DAS with the FIA. Red Bull haven't gone to the FIA and said "we'll make a wing that passes the current test but then will flex much more at some point beyond the test loads". If they had, the FIA would have said "er, no you won't as that would be illegal".

If I am wrong please correct me.

* before flexible wing ban by a rule it was also not in rules and not illegal wasn't it ?

* when the first time merc asked das to FIA, FIA had said that it is illegal but it will be legal if they do it in a different way (fia say how it should be here but I just forgot )

Flexible wings were always illegal because of the moveable aero rule. DAS wasn't illegal because it didn't affect the bits of the suspension that weren't allowed to be affected. DAS became illegal only once the FIA rewrote the rules regarding steering to outlaw it.

[dtro]

What bothers me is that they allowed DAS for a full season, and here we go when Mercedes start crying, FIA acts inmediately like it was no flex wings before

Agreed, not only that, but the reason they banned it for the following season would be the costs associated with everyone attempting to develop such a system, and completely ignored the fact that Merc gained an advantage from a loophole in the rules

You are mixing up innovation vs grey area

That's fair, though it ends up being a semantic argument to me, which may be a mistake on my part. Both innovation and exploitation of gray areas seem to effectively be exploitation of oversights on the part of regulators. The t-wing was an oversight as the regulators left a box for development but didn't think that there was a way to take advantage, DAS was an oversight, knowing that the way your wing is tested doesn't cause it to flex, but on-track conditions cause flex is a team taking advantage of an oversight by the rule makers/stewards, or no?

For what it's worth, it feels like asking a teacher if what you're doing is cheating/bending the rules and hoping the teacher doesn't look when you do is really a matter of gradients either way.

[nzjrs]

Not seeing the relevance of DAS in a 2021 RB Team Thread.

[Kingshark]

Is there any truth about Honda engines struggling with vibrations, and hence unable to unleash their full power?

https://www.formu1a.uno/le-vibrazioni-d ... -red-bull/

Also, is this something that can be fixed with a reliability upgrade?

If that story were true, all the major F1 sites would have written about it.
That would be big and important news about the Honda engine.
No other site has written about it. So you can assume that the info is not correct.

I wonder how much Honda is behind Mercedes on performance. I estimate about 2 tenths on race trim.

Realistically I cannot see RBR-Honda challenge Mercedes all the way without a “reliability” upgrade along the way.

[Sieper]

Well, it could be a real “reliability” update as they seemed more competitive that first race.

[godlameroso]

France is the 7th race a good time to introduce the second power unit