Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

[trinidefender]

Lol, protest the front wing on what grounds?

That's the entire issue with this whole argument. There are two parts to the regulations. One objective and one subjective.

The objective rule is a load test that is applied to various parts of the car such as the front and back wing. The subjective rule is that all external surfaces must remain static and immovable (whatever the hell that means ).

All cars racing now have passed the rear wing load tests and should be/are currently declared legal. Mercedes is arguing that Red Bulls rear wing visibly flexes ergo it violates the immovable surface rule.

The issue is that if you set that precedent then Mercedes are also violating this rule as their rear wing also visibly flexes.

The front wings are the same, it's hard to judge by how much but it does appear from the camera shots that mercedes front wing flexes more than the Red Bull front wing.

If Red Bull's car subsequently gets declared illegal through Mercedes court action that they are threatening to do then Red Bull will simply turn around and make their own court appeal against Mercedes front wing and the same penalty should be applied to Mercedes as the legal precedent will have been set.

This entire thing will become a tit for tat and Toto Wolf will look like a right a** hole for starting it.

The only logical way to move forward is for the FIA to change its load tests. If the the Red Bull passes the more stringent load tests but is shown to flex on camera then so be it, the car should be declared legal

[Hoffman900]

I’ve said it before, but this is ultimately the FIA’s fault for letting this happen this long.

When you don’t squash this from the moment it is first noticed, all this politicking / bickering is the result.

[trinidefender]

There is a rule book that make such statements. All cars need to adhere to that.

Correct, and the front wing currently complies. Unless the rules change redefining these parameters, there are no grounds.

That’s why the rear wing is a different case.

It is. But it is also ultimately the same case. The 3mm move under stress was allowed as the limit for the RW. And all wings were moving. It was just when a few wings were deemed to move excessively (no longer within the spirit of the rules) that the FIA agreed to make the test limit more strict. But, when the FIA feels some front wings are deemed to move excessively (as compared to others) they might introduce tests, and limits just the same. It is harder as there is no predescribed test yet, but ultimately the same factors are in play. Do we feel what some teams are doing is excessive, enough to warrant stricter regulation.

It is why mercedes have threatened to go to ICA, not because RBR is not in compliance (they are) but because they are not following the spirit of the rules.

Isn't the 3mm tolerance the amount that the rear wing can move on the load test? Not the limit of movement while the car is being driven?

Secondly from the onboards it looks like the Mercedes rear wing moves much more than 3mm.

[Sieper]

Correct, and the front wing currently complies. Unless the rules change redefining these parameters, there are no grounds.

That’s why the rear wing is a different case.

It is. But it is also ultimately the same case. The 3mm move under stress was allowed as the limit for the RW. And all wings were moving. It was just when a few wings were deemed to move excessively (no longer within the spirit of the rules) that the FIA agreed to make the test limit more strict. But, when the FIA feels some front wings are deemed to move excessively (as compared to others) they might introduce tests, and limits just the same. It is harder as there is no predescribed test yet, but ultimately the same factors are in play. Do we feel what some teams are doing is excessive, enough to warrant stricter regulation.

It is why mercedes have threatened to go to ICA, not because RBR is not in compliance (they are) but because they are not following the spirit of the rules.

Isn't the 3mm tolerance the amount that the rear wing can move on the load test? Not the limit of movement while the car is being driven?

Secondly from the onboards it looks like the Mercedes rear wing moves much more than 3mm.

Yes, it is. I may have been unclear about that. Sorry if that caused confusion. The current limit of movement for the existing static, pull test limit is 3mm. This will be reduced to 1mm. Per France. How much wing movement we ultimately see on track is indifferent to that. It was clearly a lot more. Even for Mercedes. I would guess that at this much stricter test limit will prevent much wing flex, if at all.

And even if after the wings comply with the new static test limit of 1mm we still see wing flexing. What is to stop parties protesting again.

I don’t think we will see much flexing anymore, but if it would, it would still not be in the spirit of the rule.

[RZS10]

Well that is where the video monitoring steps in, if the teams spend let's say half a million to design another wing that (by)passes the load test via nonlinear behaviour the FIA will simply look at the footage and say "That's too much".

[peaty]

Well that is where the video monitoring steps in, if the teams spend let's say half a million to design another wing that (by)passes the load test via nonlinear behaviour the FIA will simply look at the footage and say "That's too much".

is the "nonlinear behaviour" included in the wording of the rule?

[214270]

There is a rule book that make such statements. All cars need to adhere to that.

Correct, and the front wing currently complies. Unless the rules change redefining these parameters, there are no grounds.

That’s why the rear wing is a different case.

It is. But it is also ultimately the same case. The 3mm move under stress was allowed as the limit for the RW. And all wings were moving. It was just when a few wings were deemed to move excessively (no longer within the spirit of the rules) that the FIA agreed to make the test limit more strict. But, when the FIA feels some front wings are deemed to move excessively (as compared to others) they might introduce tests, and limits just the same. It is harder as there is no predescribed test yet, but ultimately the same factors are in play. Do we feel what some teams are doing is excessive, enough to warrant stricter regulation.

It is why mercedes have threatened to go to ICA, not because RBR is not in compliance (they are) but because they are not following the spirit of the rules.

Yes, but this is my point. Unless the regs/testing which apply to the front wing changes, there are no grounds to challenge. The front wing passes the tests and has been deemed legal. Unless there is a reg change before the next race, the same rules apply. The rear wing can now be protested only because there has been new clarification. At which point the rear wing can be tested against the new rules.

That’s the jump off point - New regs/testing.

[Sieper]

Questions:
- is the front facing nose cam in the exact same position relative to the wings on both cars?
- follow up to that is: is the angle the same?
- do both show the same portion of wing?
- are the comparison videos scaled to the same size?

I think all four can be answered with 'no' - that's why i never bothered comparing them that way and i believe the comparison in those videos is (almost entirely) worthless.

For the RWs three of the answers were a clear "yes", the very first one an "almost, yes".

You should add that it will also depend on the front wing configuration and flaps shape / design, which could also make one look like to moves more than others.

Yea, i'm not categorically denying that one might move more than the other but that particular comparison is just terrible - but good enough to ̶f̶̶o̶̶o̶̶l̶ convince the average twitter user and apparently most of the RBR/Honda gang here.

This is very weak arguing. You can make arguments on if what we are seeing is the same, but you can’t be putting people in the lower than yourself category because they prefer another team, driver, and thus are a gang that can be discarded. It is the reason I ignored you for some time but recently you have been making much more fair arguments. So I am replying again. Hope to keep it that way, really.

I am realistic about the RW, redbull clearly moves more than Mercedes. That is an advantage and fair play to protest. And the RW has a much bigger impact on laptime than the FW. My idea as a fool, gang banger, etc.

But it is also obvious the merc FW is also much more moveable, if you care to admit it or not. That is also an advantage and if Merc is really threatening to go to court for an already very short grace period I feel redbull would be wise to repay the favour. Let the judge decide if and what is within the current rules and the spirit of the rules. I hope it won’t come down to that. Just one more race with the currently valid limits.

[peaty]

Correct, and the front wing currently complies. Unless the rules change redefining these parameters, there are no grounds.

That’s why the rear wing is a different case.

It is. But it is also ultimately the same case. The 3mm move under stress was allowed as the limit for the RW. And all wings were moving. It was just when a few wings were deemed to move excessively (no longer within the spirit of the rules) that the FIA agreed to make the test limit more strict. But, when the FIA feels some front wings are deemed to move excessively (as compared to others) they might introduce tests, and limits just the same. It is harder as there is no predescribed test yet, but ultimately the same factors are in play. Do we feel what some teams are doing is excessive, enough to warrant stricter regulation.

It is why mercedes have threatened to go to ICA, not because RBR is not in compliance (they are) but because they are not following the spirit of the rules.

Yes, but this is my point. Unless the regs/testing which apply to the front wing changes, there are no grounds to challenge. The front wing passes the tests and has been deemed legal. Unless there is a reg change before the next race, the same rules apply. The rear wing can now be protested only because there has been new clarification.

That’s the jump off point - New regs/testing.

but it won't be apply until the french gp?. Even at that point teams will have a 20% tolerance for a month I believe. That's why, in theory, there are not grounds to challenge. If the protest is accepted, as explained by others, RBR will protest as well.

[dans79]

lol if redbull protests anyone's front wing, it will be one of the most hilarious things ever, as their front wing flexes as much as everyone else's.

talk about shooting themselves in the foot........

[Sieper]

Correct, and the front wing currently complies. Unless the rules change redefining these parameters, there are no grounds.

That’s why the rear wing is a different case.

It is. But it is also ultimately the same case. The 3mm move under stress was allowed as the limit for the RW. And all wings were moving. It was just when a few wings were deemed to move excessively (no longer within the spirit of the rules) that the FIA agreed to make the test limit more strict. But, when the FIA feels some front wings are deemed to move excessively (as compared to others) they might introduce tests, and limits just the same. It is harder as there is no predescribed test yet, but ultimately the same factors are in play. Do we feel what some teams are doing is excessive, enough to warrant stricter regulation.

It is why mercedes have threatened to go to ICA, not because RBR is not in compliance (they are) but because they are not following the spirit of the rules.

Yes, but this is my point. Unless the regs/testing which apply to the front wing changes, there are no grounds to challenge. The front wing passes the tests and has been deemed legal. Unless there is a reg change before the next race, the same rules apply. The rear wing can now be protested only because there has been new clarification. At which point the rear wing can be tested against the new rules.

That’s the jump off point - New regs/testing.

The new regs are in effect per France. What Mercedes is threatening with is protesting even for the race in Baku. And for that the current Rear wings are all in compliance. That is what I feel is problematic. FIA has listened, set new limits, gave a short period to built new wings (and other components affected, mounts, bodywork etc.). If they protest the spirit of the rules one race earlier we will have a what if hanging over the season until ICA judges.

[214270]

It is. But it is also ultimately the same case. The 3mm move under stress was allowed as the limit for the RW. And all wings were moving. It was just when a few wings were deemed to move excessively (no longer within the spirit of the rules) that the FIA agreed to make the test limit more strict. But, when the FIA feels some front wings are deemed to move excessively (as compared to others) they might introduce tests, and limits just the same. It is harder as there is no predescribed test yet, but ultimately the same factors are in play. Do we feel what some teams are doing is excessive, enough to warrant stricter regulation.

It is why mercedes have threatened to go to ICA, not because RBR is not in compliance (they are) but because they are not following the spirit of the rules.

Yes, but this is my point. Unless the regs/testing which apply to the front wing changes, there are no grounds to challenge. The front wing passes the tests and has been deemed legal. Unless there is a reg change before the next race, the same rules apply. The rear wing can now be protested only because there has been new clarification.

That’s the jump off point - New regs/testing.

but it won't be apply until the french gp?. Even at that point teams will have a 20% tolerance for a month I believe. That's why, in theory, there are not grounds to challenge. If the protest is accepted, as explained by others, RBR will protest as well.

Well that’s not how I understand it, I could be wrong through. As far as I’m aware new rules are in force. Testing/compliance of new rules however will remain as previous until the French GP, that is the core of Wolff’s position.

[peaty]

lol if redbull protests anyone's front wing, it will be one of the most hilarious things ever, as their front wing flexes as much as everyone else's.

talk about shooting themselves in the foot........

A minute ago we didn't have good video evidence but looks like you already looked into it. Please tell us more, how much are the front wings (and the flaps) flexing?

[Sieper]

Well that is where the video monitoring steps in, if the teams spend let's say half a million to design another wing that (by)passes the load test via nonlinear behaviour the FIA will simply look at the footage and say "That's too much".

Exactly.

[El Scorchio]

It is. But it is also ultimately the same case. The 3mm move under stress was allowed as the limit for the RW. And all wings were moving. It was just when a few wings were deemed to move excessively (no longer within the spirit of the rules) that the FIA agreed to make the test limit more strict. But, when the FIA feels some front wings are deemed to move excessively (as compared to others) they might introduce tests, and limits just the same. It is harder as there is no predescribed test yet, but ultimately the same factors are in play. Do we feel what some teams are doing is excessive, enough to warrant stricter regulation.

It is why mercedes have threatened to go to ICA, not because RBR is not in compliance (they are) but because they are not following the spirit of the rules.

Yes, but this is my point. Unless the regs/testing which apply to the front wing changes, there are no grounds to challenge. The front wing passes the tests and has been deemed legal. Unless there is a reg change before the next race, the same rules apply. The rear wing can now be protested only because there has been new clarification. At which point the rear wing can be tested against the new rules.

That’s the jump off point - New regs/testing.

The new regs are in effect per France. What Mercedes is threatening with is protesting even for the race in Baku. And for that the current Rear wings are all in compliance. That is what I feel is problematic. FIA has listened, set new limits, gave a short period to built new wings (and other components affected, mounts, bodywork etc.). If they protest the spirit of the rules one race earlier we will have a what if hanging over the season until ICA judges.

Just because MB are maybe protesting, doesn't mean it'll be upheld if they do. I think they'll probably still be able to run that rear wing in Baku. If I were RBR and erring on the side of caution though, I might also take one that is less likely to flex just in case.

But all the FIA have to say in Baku is 'it passes the current tests'.