Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

[diffuser]

Mercedes’ protest shouldn’t be about the test / what is flexible, etc. I’m in the Ross Brawn camp on this.

What Mercedes should protest is the duration of the grace period. That, by my understanding, is a subjective call and not based on anything in the rulebook. I’m pretty sure that’s what Toto / Mercedes is taking the most exception to.

to reinforce my point:

But Wolff is very unhappy with the grace period introduction, saying that being able to run even semi-flexible wings for the Azerbaijan GP will be hugely beneficial for those teams down the huge main straight in Baku.

"It's clear that if you have a back to back race, maybe even two weeks is too short for everybody to adjust," Wolff told media, including RacingNews365.com on Thursday in Monaco.

"But we're having four weeks to Baku, and it is incomprehensible that within four weeks, you can't stiffen up a rear wing. For the track that is probably the most affected by flexible rear wings.

"So that leaves us in no man's land, because the technical directive says that the movement of some rear wings has been judged as excessive."

Wolff hinted that those teams may yet be protested by the better-behaved teams, and said that the mess isn't desirable.

"So teams who would run this kind of wing are prone to be protested, and probably that this is going to go to the ICA (International Court of Appeal) and nobody needs this messy situation," Wolff explained.

So to get legalese on this.. the FIA's technical directive, by existing, admits that wings like the RedBulls are illegal. Furthermore, the grace period, if not based on anything in the rules, is a subjective call, and without anything to back it up, can be considered biased in order to influence the show.

That's where Mercedes lawyers will have a field day with the FIA and that's what the protest will really be about. This is entirely on the FIA for not enforcing their own rules. Especially considering they have shown in the past to move quicker on these very issues.

F1 teams police F1 teams. To my knowledge, FIA negotiate the rules with the teams then setup a bunch of tests to enforce those rules to make it harder to break those rules. For as long as I can remember it has always been one team that has figured out that another team has figured out a way to circumventing the tests.

My guess is they don't have the money or the right technical people to do that. The teams have the Technical know how and the financial incentive.

[Hoffman900]

Mercedes’ protest shouldn’t be about the test / what is flexible, etc. I’m in the Ross Brawn camp on this.

What Mercedes should protest is the duration of the grace period. That, by my understanding, is a subjective call and not based on anything in the rulebook. I’m pretty sure that’s what Toto / Mercedes is taking the most exception to.

to reinforce my point:

But Wolff is very unhappy with the grace period introduction, saying that being able to run even semi-flexible wings for the Azerbaijan GP will be hugely beneficial for those teams down the huge main straight in Baku.

"It's clear that if you have a back to back race, maybe even two weeks is too short for everybody to adjust," Wolff told media, including RacingNews365.com on Thursday in Monaco.

"But we're having four weeks to Baku, and it is incomprehensible that within four weeks, you can't stiffen up a rear wing. For the track that is probably the most affected by flexible rear wings.

"So that leaves us in no man's land, because the technical directive says that the movement of some rear wings has been judged as excessive."

Wolff hinted that those teams may yet be protested by the better-behaved teams, and said that the mess isn't desirable.

"So teams who would run this kind of wing are prone to be protested, and probably that this is going to go to the ICA (International Court of Appeal) and nobody needs this messy situation," Wolff explained.

So to get legalese on this.. the FIA's technical directive, by existing, admits that wings like the RedBulls are illegal. Furthermore, the grace period, if not based on anything in the rules, is a subjective call, and without anything to back it up, can be considered biased in order to influence the show.

That's where Mercedes lawyers will have a field day with the FIA and that's what the protest will really be about. This is entirely on the FIA for not enforcing their own rules. Especially considering they have shown in the past to move quicker on these very issues.

F1 teams police F1 teams. To my knowledge, FIA negotiate the rules with the teams then setup a bunch of tests to enforce those rules to make it harder to break those rules. For as long as I can remember it has always been one team that has figured out that another team has figured out a way to circumventing the tests.

My guess is they don't have the money or the right technical people to do that. The teams have the Technical know how and the financial incentive.

I think that's part of the problem. A sanctioning body like NASCAR, or the IRL, it's "our court and take it or leave it", so to speak.

[Just_a_fan]

Well, yes. The whole charade started because someone pointed out that the RB wing was "illegally flexing", while within the regulations at that point, there was no criterion by which that could actually be determined. Based on that, the criteria are being changed, mid-season, and hence redesigns have to be made based on criteria that were not available to engineers when the original designs were made. Effectively, teams are being punished for designing something that was fully within the rules as they were available when they made those designs.

It would be the same as declaring DAS illegal during the season, and forcing Mercedes to remove it while the season is ongoing.

It's the same as declaring party mode engine mapping illegal mid season. That was at the behest of Red Bull and I don't remember the same people complaining about the rear wing rules changing also complaining about the engine mode rules changing. That was teams being punished for running absolutely legal engine maps.

[henry]

Well, yes. The whole charade started because someone pointed out that the RB wing was "illegally flexing", while within the regulations at that point, there was no criterion by which that could actually be determined. Based on that, the criteria are being changed, mid-season, and hence redesigns have to be made based on criteria that were not available to engineers when the original designs were made. Effectively, teams are being punished for designing something that was fully within the rules as they were available when they made those designs.

It would be the same as declaring DAS illegal during the season, and forcing Mercedes to remove it while the season is ongoing.

It's the same as declaring party mode engine mapping illegal mid season. That was at the behest of Red Bull and I don't remember the same people complaining about the rear wing rules changing also complaining about the engine mode rules changing. That was teams being punished for running absolutely legal engine maps.

In the case of party mode there were no catch all clauses in the regulations that could justify the change. It could be said that it was a follow on from the change to restrict part throttle fuel flow rates. The clear objective of both seems to have been to clip the wings of those who could tune their power units for more performance in qualifying.

[Just_a_fan]

It's the same as declaring party mode engine mapping illegal mid season. That was at the behest of Red Bull and I don't remember the same people complaining about the rear wing rules changing also complaining about the engine mode rules changing. That was teams being punished for running absolutely legal engine maps.

In the case of party mode there were no catch all clauses in the regulations that could justify the change. It could be said that it was a follow on from the change to restrict part throttle fuel flow rates. The clear objective of both seems to have been to clip the wings of those who could tune their power units for more performance in qualifying.

The clear objective was to help Red Bull by closing the qualifying gap. To "help the show", of course.

[nzjrs]

It's the same as declaring party mode engine mapping illegal mid season. That was at the behest of Red Bull and I don't remember the same people complaining about the rear wing rules changing also complaining about the engine mode rules changing. That was teams being punished for running absolutely legal engine maps.

In the case of party mode there were no catch all clauses in the regulations that could justify the change. It could be said that it was a follow on from the change to restrict part throttle fuel flow rates. The clear objective of both seems to have been to clip the wings of those who could tune their power units for more performance in qualifying.

The clear objective was to help Red Bull by closing the qualifying gap. To "help the show", of course.

We've already got a thread for this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29748

[Just_a_fan]

In the case of party mode there were no catch all clauses in the regulations that could justify the change. It could be said that it was a follow on from the change to restrict part throttle fuel flow rates. The clear objective of both seems to have been to clip the wings of those who could tune their power units for more performance in qualifying.

The clear objective was to help Red Bull by closing the qualifying gap. To "help the show", of course.

We've already got a thread for this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29748

Yes, but it is still worthwhile reminding Red Bull / Max fans about other mid-season rule changes and how/why they happen.

[darkpino]

It’s been said before but I will post it again just to be sure: Mercedes being sad about the grace period after their DAS operation last year with a grace period of a year show who are the real hypocrites in this situation

[SmallSoldier]

It’s been said before but I will post it again just to be sure: Mercedes being sad about the grace period after their DAS operation last year with a grace period of a year show who are the real hypocrites in this situation

No rule broken for DAS, no grace period required... The situations aren’t equivalent


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[darkpino]

That’s how you decide to read the rule book as it states pretty clear that the steering wheel is only allowed to being used for changing the wheels for steering direction and none other.

Edit: and the fact it was already being disallowed indefinitely after the 2020 season pretty much states other than “being within the rules”.

[NathanOlder]

That’s how you decide to read the rule book as it states pretty clear that the steering wheel is only allowed to being used for changing the wheels for steering direction and none other.

Edit: and the fact it was already being disallowed indefinitely after the 2020 season pretty much states other than “being within the rules”.

And all DAS did was use the steering wheel to change the direction of the front wheels, hence why it never broke any rules. It was more like the Double Diffuser, it found a loop hole and didn't break the rules as they were written. DAS and Flexi wings are completely different things. Flexi wings have always been banned, many teams have had them, and they all had to drop them. This is the same.

[nzjrs]

The clear objective was to help Red Bull by closing the qualifying gap. To "help the show", of course.

We've already got a thread for this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29748

Yes, but it is still worthwhile reminding Red Bull / Max fans about other mid-season rule changes and how/why they happen.

Agree. It's good to keep all the FIA is in/consistently good/bad at conspiring against/for team theories in the same place.

[DChemTech]

It’s been said before but I will post it again just to be sure: Mercedes being sad about the grace period after their DAS operation last year with a grace period of a year show who are the real hypocrites in this situation

No rule broken for DAS, no grace period required... The situations aren’t equivalent


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No rule broken here either, 3.9 stipulates the tolerances that are allowed, they were met.
If you still consider 3.8 in isolation as being the rule, then all teams were breaking it, are breaking it, and will always be breaking it, because physics does not allow otherwise.

So to get legalese on this.. the FIA's technical directive, by existing, admits that wings like the RedBulls are illegal.

No, the FIA's technical directive made wings like the RB illegal, because it changed the tolerances that are allowed. Before the directive, RB and the other teams were all meeting the specifications that were put forward.
It may of course be that FIA officials had other 'on-track tolerances' in their mind, but those were never put down on paper, so how could designers account for them? Telepathy? (Although, telepathy is a less outrageous requirement than 100% rigid wings...). But even that is questionable, as the whole charade started with Hamilton commenting on the matter, not with a FIA official making the observation.

It's the same as declaring party mode engine mapping illegal mid season. That was at the behest of Red Bull and I don't remember the same people complaining about the rear wing rules changing also complaining about the engine mode rules changing. That was teams being punished for running absolutely legal engine maps.

That is true, and that was a rather undesirable decision as well. What is legal at the start of the season, should remain legal throughout. If that leads to undesirable developments, ban them for next season like they did with DAS, but not while a season is running.

Now, the implications for engine mapping were a bit different - it meant teams could not use the party mode anymore, and time invested in developing them was lost but it did not necessarily lead to redevelopment requirements, with all due further timeloss and expenses. That is the case with the new wing regulations, however. Furthermore, in case of party modes, the intention was to bring a fight into a season that was lacking one. In this case, the result may well be killing a fight in a season that finally has one. And that's really a shame, whether you are a RB fan or not.

[Sieper]

The clear objective was to help Red Bull by closing the qualifying gap. To "help the show", of course.

We've already got a thread for this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29748

Yes, but it is still worthwhile reminding Red Bull / Max fans about other mid-season rule changes and how/why they happen.

I have quit this thread over a week ago. I advise every other lowly Red Bull / Max fan to do the same. Just like just-a-fan, but in other words.

[Just_a_fan]

We've already got a thread for this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29748

Yes, but it is still worthwhile reminding Red Bull / Max fans about other mid-season rule changes and how/why they happen.

I have quit this thread over a week ago. I advise every other lowly Red Bull / Max fan to do the same. Just like just-a-fan, but in other words.

I didn't use that adjective.