Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

[nzjrs]

FYI circular targets 'fiducials' are indeed a common approach for camera localisation in computer vision, both for the geometric properties you mention, and that circle detection itself is well parameterised.

However all this rests on the circular targets being perfectly planar, and deviations from planar thereof will be similar in effect magnitude as the orientations that they wish to measure. Therefore I suspect they well not be measuring single target orientation via ellipse parameters.

Of course given that they could request cad data from the teams themselves it would reduce the degrees of freedom sufficiently that using the marker localisation and the CAD model they could get the complete orientation trivially.

Similarly, without said cad data I think that they will be using them to only measure rigid position and not orientation per se.

[dans79]

You guys mean sth like this?
https://i.imgur.com/NeIATdN.png

pretty much, but as i said resolution plays a significant role.

Of course given that they could request cad data from the teams themselves it would reduce the degrees of freedom sufficiently that using the marker localisation and the CAD model they could get the complete orientation trivially.

Similarly, without said cad data I think that they will be using them to only measure rigid position and not orientation per se.

Using a laser scanner during scrutineering might be a viable option as well.

[Pyrone89]

I am surprised that we have only heard about the new tests for the rear wing, as demanded by Mercedes & McLaren.

Hoewever, when are the new tests for the front wing going to be introduced? That is a part of the car at the front of the airflow and very critical.

If that does not happend at the very least the appearance of a special favoured treatment of Mercedes resurfaces (such as the extensive time they had to adjust to the oil-burning clampdown)

[NathanOlder]

I am surprised that we have only heard about the new tests for the rear wing, as demanded by Mercedes & McLaren.

Hoewever, when are the new tests for the front wing going to be introduced? That is a part of the car at the front of the airflow and very critical.

If that does not happend at the very least the appearance of a special favoured treatment of Mercedes resurfaces (such as the extensive time they had to adjust to the oil-burning clampdown)

Has anyone approached the FIA over the front wings? It took the FIA a year to get something done about RedBulls rear wing, so just a bunch of people online talking about it wont do anything for the front wing. Has any team actually protested the front?

[El Scorchio]

I am surprised that we have only heard about the new tests for the rear wing, as demanded by Mercedes & McLaren.

Hoewever, when are the new tests for the front wing going to be introduced? That is a part of the car at the front of the airflow and very critical.

If that does not happend at the very least the appearance of a special favoured treatment of Mercedes resurfaces (such as the extensive time they had to adjust to the oil-burning clampdown)

Has anyone approached the FIA over the front wings? It took the FIA a year to get something done about RedBulls rear wing, so just a bunch of people online talking about it wont do anything for the front wing. Has any team actually protested the front?

Nope. Nor t wings or shark fins. So I’m not sure why people are repeatedly trying to bring those components into the conversation until someone actually does

[Rodak]

The comments here certainly do have a 'circular' aspect to them.... If the FIA uses targets and video to measure deflection of a wing at speed and makes this the actual test for legality this puts the teams in a bit of a tight spot, as the teams won't be able to test their wings at the factory for legality unless they have a full scale wind tunnel capable of the top speed of an F1 car. The rules do restrict model size, wind speed, and wind tunnel run time so this would be a difficult test to run. The current rigidity test is a force applied to a static wing with a measure of deflection within limits to pass; a video real time defection test would. without added testing time, be a difficult one to simulate. I think the FIA has to have a static test that the teams can perform themselves in the factory.

[zibby43]

I am surprised that we have only heard about the new tests for the rear wing, as demanded by Mercedes & McLaren.

Hoewever, when are the new tests for the front wing going to be introduced? That is a part of the car at the front of the airflow and very critical.

If that does not happend at the very least the appearance of a special favoured treatment of Mercedes resurfaces (such as the extensive time they had to adjust to the oil-burning clampdown)

Has anyone approached the FIA over the front wings? It took the FIA a year to get something done about RedBulls rear wing, so just a bunch of people online talking about it wont do anything for the front wing. Has any team actually protested the front?

Nope. Nor t wings or shark fins. So I’m not sure why people are repeatedly trying to bring those components into the conversation until someone actually does

Yeah and with new regulations coming, and the cost to develop a front wing, there is a 0.00% chance anything is done about front wings.

Shark fin wobble is irrelevant. It's just a side effect of making that material as thin as possible.

[nzjrs]

Other aerodynamic flexibility is relevant insofar as you live and die by the text of article 3.8 or you don't. You can't really have it both ways, which is why it's the specific measures that must (and have already) be changed to give something that the rear wing that can said to be not in compliance with.

Now if people want to read 3.8 differently for some bodywork than others then good luck I guess, we will see if MB thinks that's a good strategy or not based on if they protest.

[ispano6]

Has anyone approached the FIA over the front wings? It took the FIA a year to get something done about RedBulls rear wing, so just a bunch of people online talking about it wont do anything for the front wing. Has any team actually protested the front?

Nope. Nor t wings or shark fins. So I’m not sure why people are repeatedly trying to bring those components into the conversation until someone actually does

Yeah and with new regulations coming, and the cost to develop a front wing, there is a 0.00% chance anything is done about front wings.

Shark fin wobble is irrelevant. It's just a side effect of making that material as thin as possible.

And that makes it OK? Surely Mercedes is capable of making something that is thin but does not flap like a flag?

[e30ernest]

It's a bit off topic, but has there been onboard footage of the Merc fin in clear air? I wonder if it's flapping is due to turbulence from the car in front. So far the only footage I've seen of this flapping is when it is behind another car.

[NathanOlder]

It's a bit off topic, but has there been onboard footage of the Merc fin in clear air? I wonder if it's flapping is due to turbulence from the car in front. So far the only footage I've seen of this flapping is when it is behind another car.

No idea for an answer, but what I did think of straight away was, how do you know its following another car ?

[e30ernest]

It's a bit off topic, but has there been onboard footage of the Merc fin in clear air? I wonder if it's flapping is due to turbulence from the car in front. So far the only footage I've seen of this flapping is when it is behind another car.

No idea for an answer, but what I did think of straight away was, how do you know its following another car ?

The footage from Max vs (what I assume is Lewis) seems to be nose to tail:



I don't know if they were taken on the same laps though (or if the Merc footage was from Ham's car).

[El Scorchio]

Nope. Nor t wings or shark fins. So I’m not sure why people are repeatedly trying to bring those components into the conversation until someone actually does

Yeah and with new regulations coming, and the cost to develop a front wing, there is a 0.00% chance anything is done about front wings.

Shark fin wobble is irrelevant. It's just a side effect of making that material as thin as possible.

And that makes it OK? Surely Mercedes is capable of making something that is thin but does not flap like a flag?

Well yes, it does make it ok. Just like Red Bull and other teams’ flexing wings have been ok up until now until they came under scrutiny of the FIA. Just because you personally don’t like another team’s shark fin (probably for no other reason than because it’s not on a Honda powered car and is on a rival car) doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.

Let’s talk about shark fins IF they become relevant to the conversation- I.e. someone within the sport whose opinion matters queries them, because they WILL at some point if there’s any more substance to it other than people on a forum waving the finger. Otherwise there’s zero point in going down that road

[zibby43]

Yeah and with new regulations coming, and the cost to develop a front wing, there is a 0.00% chance anything is done about front wings.

Shark fin wobble is irrelevant. It's just a side effect of making that material as thin as possible.

And that makes it OK? Surely Mercedes is capable of making something that is thin but does not flap like a flag?

Well yes, it does make it ok. Just like Red Bull and other teams’ flexing wings have been ok up until now until they came under scrutiny of the FIA. Just because you personally don’t like another team’s shark fin (probably for no other reason than because it’s not on a Honda powered car and is on a rival car) doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.

Let’s talk about shark fins IF they become relevant to the conversation- I.e. someone within the sport whose opinion matters queries them, because they WILL at some point if there’s any more substance to it other than people on a forum waving the finger. Otherwise there’s zero point in going down that road

Pretty much took the words off of my fingertips.

To add, I've yet to see a single compelling argument as to what the benefit of the wobbly shark fin would be, considering its primary purposes are providing laminar flow to the RW and helping stabilize the car in yaw conditions.

I can see an argument for a stiffer shark fin making those other two metrics more predictable/beneficial, but at the expense of some extra weight/girth/drag.

If there was a significant performance benefit from making the fin as large and as wobbly as possible, every single team would be doing it. With the RW, several teams have pushed the limits with respect to flexibility because the performance is there. Other teams had the capacity to do the same, but decided the risk-reward benefit of pursuing that option was not worth it.

[Just_a_fan]

Yeah and with new regulations coming, and the cost to develop a front wing, there is a 0.00% chance anything is done about front wings.

Shark fin wobble is irrelevant. It's just a side effect of making that material as thin as possible.

And that makes it OK? Surely Mercedes is capable of making something that is thin but does not flap like a flag?

Well yes, it does make it ok. Just like Red Bull and other teams’ flexing wings have been ok up until now until they came under scrutiny of the FIA. Just because you personally don’t like another team’s shark fin (probably for no other reason than because it’s not on a Honda powered car and is on a rival car) doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.

Let’s talk about shark fins IF they become relevant to the conversation- I.e. someone within the sport whose opinion matters queries them, because they WILL at some point if there’s any more substance to it other than people on a forum waving the finger. Otherwise there’s zero point in going down that road

A wobbly shark fin will be draggy as it's shedding a series of vortices - that's what creates the wobble in the first place. It's probable that the trade off between that drag and adding a bit more weight to make it not wobble is fairly finely balanced and just in favour of the extra drag rather than the extra weight. No doubt, if Horner moans, Mercedes will just add a touch more material, or make the section ever so slightly thicker, but it won't do anything to help Red Bull.