2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

[El Scorchio]

I am calling you out on this one. Because I introduced this point. And I specifically asked to please NOT consider it a knee jurk whilst doing so. Yet here you are. So what gives.

Well, you posted that if someone was in possession of fastest lap then DNF'd they should keep it, right after the very race where Verstappen was in possession of fastest lap, had a DNF and lost it.

It's knee jerk, isn't it, even if you may not see that. Or at the very least somewhat more than a coincidence. Especially seen as the rules have been in place for a couple of years with no complaints and no problems, but now all of a sudden it needs looking at?

No, I didn’t say at all he should keep it. That is what you are turning it in to with what to me feels for the sake of it. What I did do was specifically ask, I even pleaded for it, to not treat it as such. And still you found it necessary to do so. Which is always how these race threads seem to go.

Then, to come back to the point (pun intended);

Yes we have had this fastest lap point for years, and no, it almost never is “lost” due to a backmarker taking it away (I believe I read somewhere malaysia 2017 Kmag was the last time) but finishing a race with a DNF er still retaining fastest lap is pretty rare I think? It just made me think, it was actually set whilst in the top 10. That is why I posted it. I think Only Dans79 has so far replied to the question (with some very good points, making it clear that probably the current rules are simpler and thus better) instead of having a go at the poster.

What I am saying, though, is that I don't think it would ever have crossed your mind to think/question or post about if it wasn't Verstappen holding fastest lap and then DNF'ing because it wouldn't have impacted him. Just like the Monaco red flag. (and I'm know these others were not you- so this isn't something personal against you- but track limits and red flag unlapping only ever became an issue after people perceived Verstappen was unfairly disadvantaged because of it- when actually all these things have been happening for years with no similar outcry.) There just seems to be a sense of entitlement creeping into people's minds and influencing thoughts.

It may surprise you that I don't actually have it in for you at all. I'm talking about a general mindset which seems to be becoming more prevalent. FWIW I think you're a pleasant, well intentioned and articulate poster and you attempt to be constructive for the most part. Some things I agree with and some things I don't. But IMO judgement and bigger picture often seems clouded by feelings for a certain driver.

This is a far wider comment than just us two, but I think it's important for us all as a more general point to remember the long standing rules of the sport shouldn't be constantly questioned just because we don't like how they've impacted our favourite driver on a certain race weekend. The sport in terms of regulations isn't broken, unfair or in need of attention or 'fixing' every time something doesn't go the way we want it to.

[214270]

What a shitshow this place has become. I wonder what the average age is here nowadays… but on the other end i couldn’t care less. Just a shame the dick length competition overshadows the opinions of people actually knowing what they talk about. Time for a different place to read for me

+1

For a technical forum, there is way too much fandom on display. Even a well-reasoned opinion/critique can descend into a childish back-n-forth because participants are so emotionally invested.

It's easier to just stick to the car/team threads. Your best bet for more reasoned discussion is actually on the discord amazingly.

I might just have to check the discord out

[PlatinumZealot]

What a shitshow this place has become. I wonder what the average age is here nowadays… but on the other end i couldn’t care less. Just a shame the dick length competition overshadows the opinions of people actually knowing what they talk about. Time for a different place to read for me

Agree. When I joined this forum I swear the ‘tribalism’ wasn’t as pronounced. But I do feel like that’s just the way the worlds going (not to sound tooooo old - I’m 30 so old but not that old). Just seems like this idea that every opinion is valid and correct has meant that people just dig their heels in and get more and more biased/one sided in their views.

Good observation. New strains of the fanboy
virus have been running rampant of late.

We need to bring back voting into the race threads! Too many focus is on drivers, controversy and not on the technical observations during the race.

[Sieper]

Well, you posted that if someone was in possession of fastest lap then DNF'd they should keep it, right after the very race where Verstappen was in possession of fastest lap, had a DNF and lost it.

It's knee jerk, isn't it, even if you may not see that. Or at the very least somewhat more than a coincidence. Especially seen as the rules have been in place for a couple of years with no complaints and no problems, but now all of a sudden it needs looking at?

No, I didn’t say at all he should keep it. That is what you are turning it in to with what to me feels for the sake of it. What I did do was specifically ask, I even pleaded for it, to not treat it as such. And still you found it necessary to do so. Which is always how these race threads seem to go.

Then, to come back to the point (pun intended);

Yes we have had this fastest lap point for years, and no, it almost never is “lost” due to a backmarker taking it away (I believe I read somewhere malaysia 2017 Kmag was the last time) but finishing a race with a DNF er still retaining fastest lap is pretty rare I think? It just made me think, it was actually set whilst in the top 10. That is why I posted it. I think Only Dans79 has so far replied to the question (with some very good points, making it clear that probably the current rules are simpler and thus better) instead of having a go at the poster.

What I am saying, though, is that I don't think it would ever have crossed your mind to think/question or post about if it wasn't Verstappen holding fastest lap and then DNF'ing because it wouldn't have impacted him. Just like the Monaco red flag. (and I'm know these others were not you- so this isn't something personal against you- but track limits and red flag unlapping only ever became an issue after people perceived Verstappen was unfairly disadvantaged because of it- when actually all these things have been happening for years with no similar outcry.) There just seems to be a sense of entitlement creeping into people's minds and influencing thoughts.

It may surprise you that I don't actually have it in for you at all. I'm talking about a general mindset which seems to be becoming more prevalent. FWIW I think you're a pleasant, well intentioned and articulate poster and you attempt to be constructive for the most part. Some things I agree with and some things I don't. But IMO judgement and bigger picture often seems clouded by feelings for a certain driver.

This is a far wider comment than just us two, but I think it's important for us all as a more general point to remember the long standing rules of the sport shouldn't be constantly questioned just because we don't like how they've impacted our favourite driver on a certain race weekend. The sport in terms of regulations isn't broken, unfair or in need of attention or 'fixing' every time something doesn't go the way we want it to.

Ok, thanks for that and fair enough. It helps to learn how you think of me in general because I indeed felt a bit like I was getting scolded. I don't feel entitled personally, or at least, I don' think so (but perception and reality are often not the same) and I tried my best not to write the post like that. But you are correct that it would likely never have crossed my mind if it weren't Verstappen. Otoh, we all must remember that rules are there for all. Could as well have been Lewis or Charles or any other usual front runner. In that gest it perhaps would have been an option to slightly refine the rule. But in the meantime Dans for example already pointed out some potential pitfalls with that and your comment about not changing the rules at play when not strictly necessary also hold true. You must be very carefully not to fi anything that is not broken.

But to finish let me reiterate that I don't feel Max was robbed of that point or that he needed to get it. Crash is crash, racing is hard, you can lose it all in the last corner of the last race (hope that was not a jinx (F*&k me)). That is all part of the joy of it (the pain also).

[Big Tea]

+1

For a technical forum, there is way too much fandom on display. Even a well-reasoned opinion/critique can descend into a childish back-n-forth because participants are so emotionally invested.

It's easier to just stick to the car/team threads. Your best bet for more reasoned discussion is actually on the discord amazingly.

I might just have to check the discord out

Strikingly enough, it started to go down hill at about the time I joined.

What was it Marx* said? - I would not like to join any club that would accept the likes of me.



(*Groucho not Karl)

[notsofast]

An effective solution would be to lock the race thread from one hour after the finish until the next race is posted.

[dans79]

An effective solution would be to lock the race thread from one hour after the finish until the next race is posted.

Personally i think it would be far better to just punish the people who can't control themselves. After a few weekends of people getting wrong up, the race threads would probably be a lot more civilized!

[notsofast]

Well yeah. It would be great if anyone who attacks a poster would get a ban until the Monday after the next race and if the offending post would be removed immediately in order to stop the attacks. Fortunately/unfortunately this is a volunteer site, and I'm sure the mods would rather watch the race than this thread.

Most of the drivel is posted after the race because people are frustrated that their hero didn't win and they are bored waiting for the next race.

[dans79]

here is another interesting take on the tire issues.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/f1-tyre- ... story.html

However, Kees van de Grint says as soon as he saw the incidents, he suspected it was in fact "a problem with the carcass".

Van de Grint is best known in Formula 1 circles for working for Bridgestone as Michael Schumacher's tyre engineer.

"I suspect that Pirelli was already nervous about Azerbaijan, especially when the teams were asked to increase the pressures to the maximum.

"You only do that if you're worried," he said.

However, like fellow Dutchman Verstappen, van de Grint wasn't surprised when Pirelli almost instantly declared that track debris was the likely problem.

"They've always had that story ready for the past few years now," he said. "It's always because of debris, or team mistakes, or the driving style. It's never the tyres.

"Some modesty and self-criticism would be good," van de Grint insisted.

[SiLo]

It's easier to just stick to the car/team threads. Your best bet for more reasoned discussion is actually on the discord amazingly.

I might just have to check the discord out

Strikingly enough, it started to go down hill at about the time I joined.

What was it Marx* said? - I would not like to join any club that would accept the likes of me.



(*Groucho not Karl)

Having been here for a bit longer, I would weirdly agree with that. I think the popularity of the sport and Drive to Survive has brought in a lot of new fans that don't really understand the nuances of the sport yet.

The only issue is that some people are rude about it as well, and I don't want to see others pushed away from the platform when they contribute a lot to it in a positive manner.

[Sieper]

What is then the limit? Sometimes people “twist” reality. Knowingly or unknowingly. I think I might have been guilty of that myself in hindsight. But I was totally sure (back then) talking about Silverstone blowout, that it was due to wear. If somebody would now come out, totally sure it was Max’ own fault his tires gave in I would be annoyed to no end. Especially if they can’t be civil about it. Some here type in that way. Now that I know a lot of them better after reading many post it is easier to accept not always harm was intended.

You can’t also have like a vote about who is a pain as tribal teams do gang up. I sometimes see that too. A fair point getting ridiculed, and the poster at that, by several who all feel in their right to do so. Knowing that they are right. But are they?

And indeed, the idea is to discuss, to try and find out if you are actually right. Not to convince everyone you always are.

[Big Tea]

I might just have to check the discord out

Strikingly enough, it started to go down hill at about the time I joined.

What was it Marx* said? - I would not like to join any club that would accept the likes of me.



(*Groucho not Karl)

Having been here for a bit longer, I would weirdly agree with that. I think the popularity of the sport and Drive to Survive has brought in a lot of new fans that don't really understand the nuances of the sport yet.

The only issue is that some people are rude about it as well, and I don't want to see others pushed away from the platform when they contribute a lot to it in a positive manner.

I read for about a year before I logged on, and it was like watching a professional debate. Once I had joined up it seemed to become more of a...(what was that bang??) Well I had better stop there and get a dressing for my foot.

[Andres125sx]

here is another interesting take on the tire issues.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/f1-tyre- ... story.html

However, Kees van de Grint says as soon as he saw the incidents, he suspected it was in fact "a problem with the carcass".

Van de Grint is best known in Formula 1 circles for working for Bridgestone as Michael Schumacher's tyre engineer.

"I suspect that Pirelli was already nervous about Azerbaijan, especially when the teams were asked to increase the pressures to the maximum.

"You only do that if you're worried," he said.

However, like fellow Dutchman Verstappen, van de Grint wasn't surprised when Pirelli almost instantly declared that track debris was the likely problem.

"They've always had that story ready for the past few years now," he said. "It's always because of debris, or team mistakes, or the driving style. It's never the tyres.

"Some modesty and self-criticism would be good," van de Grint insisted.

Not disagreeing with this, but we should not assume it is the tire fault just because Pirelly says it´s not the tire fault.

This said, what is suspicious is Pirelli forcing teams to increase tire pressure on friday, that´s true

More transparency would be really welcome. If it was debris I´m sure they could share some picture of the tire cut. They should not be afraid of sharing pictures, they´re the only F1 tire manufacturer so none will use those pictures to take advantage. At least share the info with the affected teams, but when they don´t, people tend to assume it´s their fault and they´re trying to hide something. Probably because that´s the reality more often than not

[Sieper]

And actually, since strolls tires blew after like 31 laps? And Max 34? Was almost everyone at danger at that point? We have seen it last year as well, at Silverstone.

The problem was also a bit that everyone was taken hostage by the Stroll blowout. They all lost their pit window. If Max would have pitted he would likely just have thrown the victory away. Even if after that they all stayed out and someone else would be the first to have his tires let go.

Or was it a 1 stopper anyway? Pirelli did advice so.

[langedweil]

Max MUST make less mistakes than Lewis if he wants to win.

Isn't that just at the core of any WDC/WCC, and goes in any direction?

That sounds almost Cruijff-ian ("Soccer is simple, if you make just one goal more than your opponent, you win ..")

Not quite valide there. Points (goals) are counted at the end of the match. The side with more mistakes can still win as long as they score when it matters.

True, true ... but you get what I mean ...